What's The Point Of Marriage Anyway?

[sass_in_the_pants]

What function does marriage serve in society?

Is the purpose of marriage to make dividing of the assets to the heirs easier? Well, that would make sense, but then there would be no need for marriage if you don't plan to have children (or, for that matter, if you don't have assets).

Is it some romantic idea about joining two people who are in love? Well, that's lame. People who are in love never needed state sanctioning before (and often love has come about in glaring defiance of state sanctioning), I don't see why they would need it now.

Is it to make good material for E True Hollywood Story? Likely, but then why did we have it BEFORE E True Hollywood Story?

Is it to create a stable environment for children? Well, yes, it would certainly do that, but then why do widows and widowers far past their child bearing years get married? Why, for that matter, would young people who either can't or don't plan to have children?

Is it to get the gifts and to wear a poofy dress? Well, certainly, but then why do the men do it?

We can't pretend that marriage is a static institution. Marriage has not ALWAYS been one man and one woman. It has often been one man and many women, and occasionally one woman and many men. It has often been one man and one young girl, and in many parts of the world, it still is. And though I don't know of any society that defined a homosexual relationship as a marraige, those relationships certainly have existed at every time and in every culture and have received varying degrees of social acceptance. So, if 'marriage' can look like any of the things above, what, exactly, is it supposed to do?

I have always recognized that there is a difference between the holy sacrament of marriage, and the legal contract of marriage. Though they often happen at the same time, they are entirely different events. In one, you are making a promise to God. In the other, a promise to the state, and each holds you accountable to a very different set of standards. I understand the spiritual purpose of marriage, but what is the secular purpose to it?

[BrassFusion]

What function does marriage serve in society?

Is the purpose of marriage to make dividing of the assets to the heirs easier? Well, that would make sense, but then there would be no need for marriage if you don't plan to have children (or, for that matter, if you don't have assets).

Is it some romantic idea about joining two people who are in love? Well, that's lame. People who are in love never needed state sanctioning before (and often love has come about in glaring defiance of state sanctioning), I don't see why they would need it now.

Is it to make good material for E True Hollywood Story? Likely, but then why did we have it BEFORE E True Hollywood Story?

Is it to create a stable environment for children? Well, yes, it would certainly do that, but then why do widows and widowers far past their child bearing years get married? Why, for that matter, would young people who either can't or don't plan to have children?

Is it to get the gifts and to wear a poofy dress? Well, certainly, but then why do the men do it?

We can't pretend that marriage is a static institution. Marriage has not ALWAYS been one man and one woman. It has often been one man and many women, and occasionally one woman and many men. It has often been one man and one young girl, and in many parts of the world, it still is. And though I don't know of any society that defined a homosexual relationship as a marraige, those relationships certainly have existed at every time and in every culture and have received varying degrees of social acceptance. So, if 'marriage' can look like any of the things above, what, exactly, is it supposed to do?

I have always recognized that there is a difference between the holy sacrament of marriage, and the legal contract of marriage. Though they often happen at the same time, they are entirely different events. In one, you are making a promise to God. In the other, a promise to the state, and each holds you accountable to a very different set of standards. I understand the spiritual purpose of marriage, but what is the secular purpose to it?

If I ever get married, it would be a promise to the man I was marrying. I couldn't make a stronger promise to a god I don't believe in, and I'm sure many people who go through the motions of a religious wedding don't really believe in that god, either.

I guess for a lot of people marriage is just a way to get your relatives off your back about when you're going to settle down and get married.

[Rayne]

If I ever get married, it would be a promise to the man I was marrying. I couldn't make a stronger promise to a god I don't believe in, and I'm sure many people who go through the motions of a religious wedding don't really believe in that god, either.

I guess for a lot of people marriage is just a way to get your relatives off your back about when you're going to settle down and get married.

Yep.

Except for that last part.

[Fierce Critter]

I'm just here to say that I love Rayne's new avatar, and hope she keeps it for a long time.

And I don't give a flying fuck if I just threadjacked. Sue me.

[Onyx]

To me, if a couple chooses to marry it should be an outward symbol of their bond and their love for each other. As much as I try to tell myself that it doesn't matter, I still very much want that for myself.

Secular purpose? hmmm....

Perhaps a little more stability and a little more order? I think people tend to work a little harder on a relationship when they have made promises to each other than if they were in a casual relationship with no commitments made to each other. Maybe there would be a few less Jerry Springer moments if there were more stable homes around.

[sass_in_the_pants]

If I ever get married, it would be a promise to the man I was marrying. I couldn't make a stronger promise to a god I don't believe in, and I'm sure many people who go through the motions of a religious wedding don't really believe in that god, either.

I guess for a lot of people marriage is just a way to get your relatives off your back about when you're going to settle down and get married.

But then wouldn't it be nice if there weren't the institution of marriage? Then, your relatives wouldn't have anything to get ON your back about in the first place! Wait, that's a bad idea. They'd skip asking you when you were going to get married and move right to the request that you start popping out babies. Never mind. Bad idea. Moving right along...

See, that's the part I don't get. If marriage is a promise, why can't you just say 'i promise' and be done with it? Why get the state involved at all?

To me, if a couple chooses to marry it should be an outward symbol of their bond and their love for each other. As much as I try to tell myself that it doesn't matter, I still very much want that for myself.

Secular purpose? hmmm....

Perhaps a little more stability and a little more order? I think people tend to work a little harder on a relationship when they have made promises to each other than if they were in a casual relationship with no commitments made to each other. Maybe there would be a few less Jerry Springer moments if there were more stable homes around.

Now, Onyx, let's not go around trying to have fewer Jerry Springer moments. I simply can't live in a world with fewer Jerry Springer moments. I definitely buy the 'more order' thing, I mean, that's the state's job after all, and you definitely have more order if you can pair people off and say 'Okay, Tom and Sally, you're together and that's that' and I do think you work harder to keep it together if you've already committed yourself to that person. But, we all know that very stable relationships can happen on a casual level, so why should THOSE people bother to get married? I found your answer very interesting, Onyx, in that you want marriage not to matter, but it still does to you. Why?

[n0Mad]

Tax breaks.

[BrassFusion]

Tax breaks.

And insurance and shit like that. As much as I want to be independent, I might end up with a guy who can provide for me better than I could myself. Or vice versa.

I really want gay people to have those same rights, too, but that's a WHOLE nother ball of wax and I don't want to jack your thread. if someone wants to respond to that pm me.

[Steven]

What function does marriage serve in society?

I have always recognized that there is a difference between the holy sacrament of marriage, and the legal contract of marriage. Though they often happen at the same time, they are entirely different events. In one, you are making a promise to God. In the other, a promise to the state, and each holds you accountable to a very different set of standards. I understand the spiritual purpose of marriage, but what is the secular purpose to it?

ahhhh.....great great questions and insight.

you are absolutely correct in that there are two different sets of accoutability within some marriages when you mention the state (secular) and the spiritual (God). I agree with this.

for many couples, perhaps most, there is nothing spiritual going on within the dynamics of that relationship, they are jsut a couple fo people who got married and their doing the best they can.

there are others like myself, who's core marital identity is that of a spiritual provision.....we pursue and work on our marriage thru the framework of the biblical model of covenant, of which there are at least 8 specific biblical examples of in describing covenants between men, and covenants between God and Man. A covenant is a lifelong to the death sort of arrangement, in which everythign you have is shared as one, your individual gifts, your hopes and dreams, your personal wealth, your burdons, your enemies, your allies, your strengths, your weaknesses, all of it has a certain foundational platform that both parties understand deeply and draw from. As silly as it may sound if you dont beleive in God, that arrangment creates a pretty intense form of intimacy and a resliliency against all of the challenges of this world. If you study marriage history and it's vows and symbolism, it is all rooted in covenant. What you do in a marriage ceremony is exactly what you do when you create a covenant with someone else. Covenants were made between kings, business allies, tribes, factions, etc. They had purpose, declared sets of promises (marriage vows), symbolism was used such as animal sacrifices or building an alter (Marriage rings), witnesses were present for validity, etc. etc. etc. We dont do that sort of thign anymore. Nowadays were much more interested in the backdoor clause than honering a promise.

As far as the State is concerned, well, we pay our taxes every year like the rest of you. That's about it as far as the state's influence goes. Yes they step in (actually, profesionals on a retainer step in) to divide assets and such when the marriage breaks down, but you have to ahve a marriage that is breaking down first. I've got 20 years into this and we are a literal "till death do us part" couple. And anybody that knows us as a couple, knows how tite we are and how much we love each other and how well we work togethor. That's a leanred thing.

what are the benefits to society?

I dont know. I suppose society would have to answer that one. The best way I can answer that question is to say quite simply, that my house is a safe house, and I dont think too many homes really are.

You mentioned "casual" relationships that are highly successful.

I have a hard time accepting the term "casual" with success, or seeing it imply any depth. And I mean no disrespect but there is a HUGE difference between living with your partner "just like" your married and actuallybeing married. And that conclusion comes from alot of experince on both ends.

So that I can understand better what yoru talking about, can you give me some examples of what you mean by use of the terms casual and succesful?

[Steven]

And insurance and shit like that. As much as I want to be independent, I might end up with a guy who can provide for me better than I could myself. Or vice versa.

I really want gay people to have those same rights, too, but that's a WHOLE nother ball of wax and I don't want to jack your thread. if someone wants to respond to that pm me.

your much better off owning a home if you want tax breaks than getting married.

and what about all of the married couples who dont have insurance or simply cant affored it?

[Rayne]

I'm just here to say that I love Rayne's new avatar, and hope she keeps it for a long time.

And I don't give a flying fuck if I just threadjacked. Sue me.

Thank you FC.

[The Kanuck]

Easy.

You found someone you don't want to kill, why not spend the rest of your life with that person? Only makes sence.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I just wanted to point out that the State has only been involved in marrige for the last 1-200 years and that the church has only been involved for about 400 or so years and only about 200 of those years has it been involved in a greater capacity than giving a blessing.

Though many cultures have had marrige ceremonys for thousands of years.. they have all been basically the same and for the same purpose... a publicly made oath between a couple.. to be tgether for as long as life allows working together to overcome those trials and tribulations thrown at us.

[pomba gira]

From a practical standpoint "marriage" is legal shorthand for a whole range of complex property/inheritance, power of attorney, "family law", and other considerations. You would spend literally hours signing all the legal documents that are implied by a marriage license.

From a social standpoint, when a couple marries the relationship goes from being a personal matter between two people, to a family/community matter... the relationship becomes "everyone's business". There is the whole "joining of two families" bit, but more importantly, when a couple marries the cultural expectation is that their families & friends will support the marriage (not talking about financial support although that can be part of it). This is a very real expectation- that's why it's so difficult to be in a marriage where your family doesn't like your mate. Lack of support from family & friends can definitely break a marriage.

Benefits to society: Apart from the obvious economic benefits, the main one is stability. Individual & family stability greatly contributes to the stability of society as a whole.

and... I agree with Steven as far as "casual relationship" and "stable relationship" being oxymorons. Yes, there are plenty of folks who have committed, stable relationships but are not legally married... the legal concept of common law marriage recognizes this. But I don't think "casual" is the correct term to refer to such relationships... IMO "casual" and "committed" are mutually exclusive terms when it comes to relationships. To me "casual" implies no legal, ethical, or emotional restraints on bailing at any time. In a "stable" or committed relationship the ethical and emotional restraints are there even if the legal ones are not.

[Steven]

I just wanted to point out that the State has only been involved in marrige for the last 1-200 years and that the church has only been involved for about 400 or so years and only about 200 of those years has it been involved in a greater capacity than giving a blessing.

Though many cultures have had marrige ceremonys for thousands of years.. they have all been basically the same and for the same purpose... a publicly made oath between a couple.. to be tgether for as long as life allows working together to overcome those trials and tribulations thrown at us.

incorrect on church involvement.

peruse both the old and new testament and you will find multiple sciptures about honoring the marriage covenant, including topical discussion on it by christ himself, where he references Moses creating the provision of divorce. So if Christ goes back what, a a few thousand years? And the Priesthood that eventually became the Sanhedrin goes back thousands of years before that, and prior to Christ's invention of the new church all things were handled by the preist from teh tribe of Levi and the prophets of the age.

You definately had church involvement in Marriages. A lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng time ago.

[Onyx]

I found your answer very interesting, Onyx, in that you want marriage not to matter, but it still does to you. Why?

Very simple -- because the man I would like to marry hasn't asked me yet!

[phee]

Very simple -- because the man I would like to marry hasn't asked me yet!

Sorry Miss... I am already married.... but thanks for thinking of me :blushing

[BrassFusion]

I've got 20 years into this and we are a literal "till death do us part" couple. And anybody that knows us as a couple, knows how tite we are and how much we love each other and how well we work togethor. That's a leanred thing.

THIS is what I want, and I don't believe either party has to believe in anything supernatural to achieve that. Of course, I'm young.

[Steven]

THIS is what I want, and I don't believe either party has to believe in anything supernatural to achieve that. Of course, I'm young.

And I hope you get what you want Erin, seriously. Whoever marries you is going to have to be pretty fast on his feet and very nimble minded, yet tempered with nuts of steel. I should very much like to meet this man when that day comes....

[BrassFusion]

And I hope you get what you want Erin, seriously. Whoever marries you is going to have to be pretty fast on his feet and very nimble minded, yet tempered with nuts of steel. I should very much like to meet this man when that day comes....

Lol. How about nuts of tempered steel?

I like to think that I don't expect anything from a prospective mate that I don't already display myself... I should freaking clone myself and make it get a sex change.

[LuluVox]

It's another level of commitment, in my opinion. Plus, "husband" sounds much better than "boyfriend."

[Head Wreck]

the only advantage i see is when theres kids involved for legal resons (here the children of an unmarried couple could be "taken into care" if the mother dies).

commitment is something a couple has regardless of the big gettup and i've known strong couples fall apart once married because they really did belive that it is bigger than they were as a couple.

my opinions... well i've been single for 5-6 years after a relationship fell apart with a woman i was considering marrying one day, and tbh looking back i think it'd have resulted in a messy divorce, no matter how liberal my outlook is inside i am monogomous and generally insecure about such things back then (beliving maridge was bigger than what it is) and she... well lets just say she has comitment issues and a wandering eye, a bad mix when put together with just being a plain old nutcase. those five or six years or so i've been doing some thinking and really only in the past 2 years its all made sense in my head to me

marriage is an odd thing, a good friend of mine has been married since a very early age and they seem to be a strong couple, they have thier own way of making it work and just plain direct aproach (they dont carry photographs of each other, they if they want to look at each other they just go and look at each other).

so sum it up.

marriage is as good as you make it, just liker anything else

[Steven]

I got no kids (tried but it didint work out) and yet I've still felt my life is infinitely better in a committed, proactive, evolving partnership caled marriage.

[Onyx]

Sorry Miss... I am already married.... but thanks for thinking of me :blushing

Yep, someone beat me to it. Story of my llife

Lol. How about nuts of tempered steel?

[sass_in_the_pants]

You mentioned "casual" relationships that are highly successful.

I have a hard time accepting the term "casual" with success, or seeing it imply any depth. And I mean no disrespect but there is a HUGE difference between living with your partner "just like" your married and actuallybeing married. And that conclusion comes from alot of experince on both ends.

So that I can understand better what yoru talking about, can you give me some examples of what you mean by use of the terms casual and succesful?

Yes, I didn't explain myself very well, did I? Casual probably wasn't the right term. The couples were very committed to eachother, intending to spend the rest of their lives together, but just waiting on a few things before actually marrying (travel visas to get the family here to meet before the wedding, and the other couple I was thinking of - he had surgery to stop his seizures and he didn't want to propose to his girlfriend until the seizures were gone for a year). I suppose that doesn't imply the word 'casual' at all, does it? What I was trying to get at was that these people were committed to eachother and happy BEFORE they got married. They already loved eachother. The marriage didn't change that. They got married because they loved the idea of being married, too. My point there being that love and commitment certainly can exist outside of marriage, so, when people say marriage is around to validate their love, well, you didn't need marriage to fall in love.

Easy.

You found someone you don't want to kill, why not spend the rest of your life with that person? Only makes sence.

Okay, but then just spend the rest of your life with them. I mean, I had a big wedding, so there was alot to do for it, but even if you just went through the legal aspect of it, you still have to get copies of your birth certificates, go downtown to get the license, find some witnesses, have a ceremony, and then fill out a bunch of paperwork afterwards. Why go through all that trouble? Why not just spend your life with that person?

From a practical standpoint "marriage" is legal shorthand for a whole range of complex property/inheritance, power of attorney, "family law", and other considerations. You would spend literally hours signing all the legal documents that are implied by a marriage license.

From a social standpoint, when a couple marries the relationship goes from being a personal matter between two people, to a family/community matter... the relationship becomes "everyone's business". There is the whole "joining of two families" bit, but more importantly, when a couple marries the cultural expectation is that their families & friends will support the marriage (not talking about financial support although that can be part of it). This is a very real expectation- that's why it's so difficult to be in a marriage where your family doesn't like your mate. Lack of support from family & friends can definitely break a marriage.

Benefits to society: Apart from the obvious economic benefits, the main one is stability. Individual & family stability greatly contributes to the stability of society as a whole.

and... I agree with Steven as far as "casual relationship" and "stable relationship" being oxymorons. Yes, there are plenty of folks who have committed, stable relationships but are not legally married... the legal concept of common law marriage recognizes this. But I don't think "casual" is the correct term to refer to such relationships... IMO "casual" and "committed" are mutually exclusive terms when it comes to relationships. To me "casual" implies no legal, ethical, or emotional restraints on bailing at any time. In a "stable" or committed relationship the ethical and emotional restraints are there even if the legal ones are not.

Heh. The funny thing is, once I got married I STILL spent hours filling out paperwork! Legal 'short'hand my eye! I kid. I see your point. I was mulling over this yesterday, too, and that's the path I started to go down too. Except for SS benefits (and who are we kidding? that's not going to be around when we retire anyway), pension benefits (again, who gets a pension anymore these days?) and, in some cases, health beneftis, everything else is just paperwork if you want to get it done. Joint bank accounts? Done, fill out paperwork. Name change, done. Fill out paperwork. Everything, just fill out paperwork. So, yes, I see the purpose in that. Cultural expectation...I think you're right. People always say that the piece of paper doesn't mean anything, that they can love eachother without it. And they're right. But what people get wrong is what that piece of paper was saying in the first place. It was saying that our love is no longer a private matter, this is something that now will affect scoeity and we, as a couple are ready to take that responsibility. I get that.

marriage is an odd thing, a good friend of mine has been married since a very early age and they seem to be a strong couple, they have thier own way of making it work and just plain direct aproach (they dont carry photographs of each other, they if they want to look at each other they just go and look at each other).

so sum it up.

marriage is as good as you make it, just liker anything else

Everyone tells me and my husband that we need to get more pictures. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll get around to it.

And BF, I hope you find a manw ith steel nuts, too. If I ever happen to meet a steel-nutted man, I will definitely send him your way.