What's The Point Of Marriage Anyway?

[Steven]

up to this point, "gay lifestyle" has had to be"in the closet" because it was morally frowned upon, so i don't think we have any reliable past history to go by, regarding whether or not their "commitment lifespans" are comparable to heteros. (people can't have a successful gay relationship and have it known about, when they fear getting beat down/ostracized/killed for their choices) i look at all the relationships around me, and honestly, i don't see the kind of "lifelong" happiness to which you are referring, regardless of orientation. personally, i don't think the alternative lifestyles have anything to do with the perceived (feared) moral decay of society, and i don't think legal gay commitment will further unravel the moral fabric of this country. in fact, if you look back thru history, you'll find that societal definitions of morality have changed quite a bit since civilization "started". i also think you'll find that it will continue to evolve to include the new directions society takes on its journey into maturity.

writing discrimination (no gay commitment) into law is entirely being self-protective, from a x-tian perspective. in my opinion, x-tians don't want to lose hold on their claim of being the right moral compass for the nation. (hell, not just the nation, either!) of course, that's the job of any religion - to claim they are good and right and proper, and that everyone else needs to believe/worship the way they do, and if they don't they're wrong/bad/sinners/evil. it's the nature of the beast, which is why i sincerely hope that one day, we can move beyond separationist beliefs, and grow to be accepting of any belief system that is focused on love, mutual respect, cooperation, and empowerment.

wow... where the fuck did all that come from!?!? :laughing

here's one thing I've noticed in talking to people from "my" (40 somethigns) generation here in Michigan. Apparently - you literally never saw gay relationships, because out here you'd get he beat down. I get that. But I'm from Los Angeles and San Fransisco, and Hollywood, and several beach communities. I've seen the open gay lifestyle since I was a little kid. understand if you will Mike, that I come from a very open and experimental west coast social circle and subculture. So I think that you and I are possibly drawing from different sets of experiences. I first noticed Gay relationships when I was about ten. So....let's go with 30 years of being aware of their existence. I first became intimate with gay people (key word is intimate brutha - not I had a neighbor who had a buddy who had a plumber who was gay) when I was about 25. So that's about 15 years of social interaction with both gay men and Lesbian freinds.

Now - you make a great point in that you dont see any lifelong relationships around regardless of sexuality. That's because you dont come to the Chez Steve-O for dinner. And - if your willing, trust me when I tell you that I have learned how to be successful in a long term relationship from other successful couples who both mentored an dmodeld it for me, they do exist, but in very rare numbers. I AGREE with you here Bud.

However - the gay lifestyle in general, by nature, is a promiscuous one. Even committed gay couples often have side play partners. I'm not reading that out of a book, I'm telling you this from watching it frst hand amont loved ones. And that promiscuity, in my feeble opinion, eventually corrodes the foundations of trust and intimacy. I know that can be argued. Whatever, its just how I feel. I have NOT ASKED TO LEGISLATE IT.

Social definitions of Morality and the changes thereof:

Again, I agree with you that there have been changes. I'll have to go abck and re read my posts, but I dont think I was ever pressing a MORAL argument per se or playing the blame game. But I'm not talking about The Romans tuesday night Orgy and Lobster fests. I am and have been talking about - our CURRENT societies seemingly short term attention span and want of a creative manner to extricate oneself from "the hassle" that comes with commitments in general. Shit man, throw in children and freindship commitments in there too. Throw in whatever you want and I'll still beleive the same: by and large, we cant hang, we dont stick, we tuck and run very easily, we dont cope well, and all of this we teach to our children.

Honest Question(s) to you now Mike:

Do you (you) beleive that I (me) want to be the right moral compass for anybody? Is that my calling to DGN? To show you all the error of your paganistic humanistic ways? Do you feel judged by me and beneath me when we hang out? Do I speak to you in a condescending manner? Do you think I want any harm to come to any of you who live a different lifestyle than I do? Do yo beleive that I need (need) someone to point at to say "BAD" and a mirror to look in to say "GOOD"? Do you think, that I think, that you are : wrong, bad, a sinner, evil? And have I ever at any point in my existence here inside of DGN, ever exhibited toward you or anyone else, some of those ideals of acceptance that you respectfully hold so dear? Cause I am one of those Xtians you just painted up. I am a card carrying member. And I did not crawl out from under a rock, someone somehow somewhere....influenced me.

What I do, is what you do Bro.

Express my values and opinions, and attempt to hold onto what I beleive "works" and makes sense. That is all. I do not fear the gay agenda, if it exists. Dont fear my conservative agenda, if it it exists. Yhe only things I'm trying to hold onto as if it is mone is my house and my pants.

Both you and Brass have attempted to chastize me for what I do not ask for.

I can see "you" inside of your ideals and beyond them regardless of whether or not I agree with them, because I am searching for "you" to connect with, as opposed to a like minded point of view. I question sometimes, if that is reciprical.

[Steven]

If you're not part of the solution...

your taking a shot at me that you havent earned yet Brass.

I like you, I do.

But don't insinuate that I'm impotent.

[Msterbeau]

The "process" is already an option. It's called pre-marital counseling. Not that many people take advantage of it, but well.

If you're not suggesting legislation, what ARE you suggesting?

You can't be society's mommy. No one can. That's the major problem with the democratic party right now... willing to deny basic freedoms (speech, assemblage, press, even religion to a degree) so everyone gets this shallow feeling of self-worth, and so no one has to be offended or exposed to something that makes them uncomfortable.

Not to say the republicans don't mold the same shit into a different shape.

So your "solution" is to let things go on their merry fucked-up way? That doesn't sound like progress either.

I don't know what the options are between "option" and "legislation" .... Not many people seem willing to admit that they have problems. Fewer still step up to do something about it. Counseling doesn't seem like the right word for what I envision. It's more like semi-guided fact finding.

Whatever... it'd never happen because nobody has a problem, right?

[BrassFusion]

steven: it doesn't matter if you've seen eleventy billion gay couplings that don't work and none that do. you're making unfair generalizations about a group of people that's getting us all nowhere.

that would be like me saying that i've known eleventy billion lazy mexicans over the course of my life and no industrious ones. even if my observation was true AND objective (because let's be fair, yours isn't either!), generalizing about an entire group of people based on one's opinion is

HAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRMFUUUUUUUUUUUUULLL

(and at least in your case, muy hypocritical)

marc:

So your "solution" is to let things go on their merry fucked-up way? That doesn't sound like progress either.

my solution is to let people do their merry fucked up things because liberty qua liberty is always worth defending.

[Steven]

C'mon Brass, I give you what I belevie I know based on experience versus data coolection and popular trend reituration.

incidently you do the same thing.

and all any of can do at our very best my friend, is generalize.

notice I did not proscylitize (sp?)

or bastardize

or chastize

or even criticize

I think what I do Brass.

[BrassFusion]

C'mon Brass, I give you what I belevie I know based on experience versus data coolection and popular trend reituration.

incidently you do the same thing.

and all any of can do at our very best my friend, is generalize.

notice I did not proscylitize (sp?)

or bastardize

or chastize

or even criticize

I think what I do Brass.

the "lazy mexicans" thing was hyperbole. i don't really believe that, i was only trying to draw a parallel between two stupid generalities. believe me, you don't HAVE to generalize gay people. there's no law that says you do (yet).

(proselytize)

and yeah, i'm fully aware i do that. your opinions on this matter are dangerous and bad, steven. sorry. you know I have few moral absolutes, but... this country really doesn't need a caste system

[Steven]

the "lazy mexicans" thing was hyperbole. i don't really believe that, i was only trying to draw a parallel between two stupid generalities. believe me, you don't HAVE to generalize gay people. there's no law that says you do (yet).

(proselytize)

and yeah, i'm fully aware i do that. your opinions on this matter are dangerous and bad, steven. sorry. you know I have few moral absolutes, but... this country really doesn't need a caste system

oooooooooooooohhhhhhhhh my goodness we are SO done Brass.

fair thee well.....

[kellygrrrrrl]

that makes me sad..... =(

agree to disagree!!! ?

[Steven]

that makes me sad..... =(

agree to disagree!!! ?

ahhhh you have a big heart Kelly.

I wasent writing her off, just offing myself from the conversation (just this one) between us cause it seemed to be getting a bit beyond topic and was moving into a "let's take a few pot shots" mode and I wasent into that. I still like Brass and she still has the hots for me.

[kellygrrrrrl]

ok....good!

[BrassFusion]

it seemed to be getting a bit beyond topic and was moving into a "let's take a few pot shots" mode

i wouldn't do pot shots with you like that. i was being 100% serious.

I still like Brass and she still has the hots for me.

can't lie about that one, though.

[sass_in_the_pants]

I think I found at least part of my answer:

http://www.bustedhalo.com/features/PureSex...tedHalo.com.htm