Bush Just Really Really Can't Admit He's Wrong

[Steven]

wow: dignified, right leaning moderate.

and here all this time I was thinking I'm just some guy....

[JaneDead]

thanks eternal. thanks for not mentioning ME. as always, no fucking love.

and steven - you are right. it should be pepsi not coke. it is so much better.

[Msterbeau]

wow: dignified, right leaning moderate.

and here all this time I was thinking I'm just some guy....

Sorry pal. You will never be just some guy. You open your mouth (typewriter) too much for that title...

[Troy Spiral (13)]

We Interrupt This Line Of Rambling BS to bring you an on-topic post: (please forgive the intrusion)

I'm silly enough to think im fairly well-researched on this subject. The more i learn about the subject, the less i have a clue about what "really" should be done. Unless i turn a blind eye to any contrarian thinking, this really isnt a simple subject easily painted in "the smart vs the dumb" and the "good vs the bad" in terms of forigen policy.

Its fun to think we have the right solution but its just not something i think that is in existence. Anything we do , or dont do will have unhappy consequences.

Now, is throwing more american soldiers into the meatgrinder over there going to "win" anything for us? No. Its "unwinable" in any practical sense. We cant win against the sort of enemy that exists over there in any reasonable timescale. This is sort of Vietnam XXXtreme. Reducing terrorism to any acceptable level (as if) will be a generations-long process, that wont happen with big piles of tanks and machine guns.

Did we probably go over there under bullshit pretenses? Yep. Would we be in Iraq if Papa Bush The First didnt wuss out the first time? Probably not. Would they even give a shit about Iraq in particular if there wasnt massive buckets of liquid gold over there? Probably not.

But, every credible senario i've read says terrorism will increase , in no small amount, with our pullout of the region. Maybe we dont have clearly defined 'victory conditions' but the terrorists sure do. "Get the great satan out of our land." We pullout? They win. Right now their targets are well-trained military folk, unfortunately for them. Guess were the next battlefield will be? I can tell u it wont be Islamabad.

Our buddies A-Q were basically "made" by Russias pullout of Afganistan (to massivly oversimplify) and that was small potatoes. This is BIG TIME. Whats gonna happen when the ultimate superpower of the world bows to terrorists pressures? It wont be tea and crumpets with the queen i can assure you.

It was the terrorist leaders wet dream to have the USA directly intervene over there. That gave them a direct way to "fight the great satan". Afganistan Part II. The best possible scenario for every terrorist org worth its salt is for us to pull out. That will be the best terrorist recruitment tool that ever existed. "We blew their asses up on their home soil.. they came over here looking for vengeance, and WE SENT THEM PACKING... Praise Allah!! Look we just beat satan... sign up here. "

But can we "win" in Iraq? No. Not in any traditional measure of winning a war.

So whats the solution ? Good luck. No easy answer there. Its gonna be long, and its going to be expensive. Either in troops & money & bodycount or all 3. Pull out? Save some money and some troops, but up the bodycount. (we might pack it up and throw in the towel , but our enemy will not, they'll bring the fight right back here were it started) Either way theres gonna be a nice, cheerful, "i told you so" death toll with no simple solution.

[BrassFusion]

All that assumes that insurgent groups in Iraq have a link to Al Qaeda, or had something to do with attacking us in 2001. They don't, and they didn't. Pulling our troops out of Iraq (NOT Afghanistan, necessarily) wouldn't be bending to the demands of a "terror group that attacked us," it would be the people of this country taking it the hell back from a corrupt warmongering administration. Admitting that we made an error in fucking judgment by voting for an executive who would start a bullshit war and representatives who would keep throwing money down the Black Hole of Baghdad.

[JaneDead]

leave it to troy to pop in and put things back "on topic"

and leave it to me to put them off again. i thought that was phee's job... *ponders*

[sinmantyx]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/20/wit...eref=rss_latest

So when he declared victory like... was it 3 or so years ago, about? Was it because we captured their flag or something?

Ok..I'm TOTALLY not actually entering the conversation but the legend of the flag capture was recounted to my husband from someone who was involved:

Take down old flag (and statue and what-not): Iraqi people cheer!

Put up American flag (by serviceman who happen to have one): Iraqi people go "BOO!"

Replace flag with flag from pre-Saddam regime (that happened to be laying around somewhere): Iraqi people cheer!

So yeah, it was totally about capturing the flag.

[BrassFusion]

Ok..I'm TOTALLY not actually entering the conversation but the legend of the flag capture was recounted to my husband from someone who was involved:

Take down old flag (and statue and what-not): Iraqi people cheer!

Put up American flag (by serviceman who happen to have one): Iraqi people go "BOO!"

Replace flag with flag from pre-Saddam regime (that happened to be laying around somewhere): Iraqi people cheer!

So yeah, it was totally about capturing the flag.

And to think I was being facetious.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

All that assumes that insurgent groups in Iraq have a link to Al Qaeda, or had something to do with attacking us in 2001. They don't, and they didn't. Pulling our troops out of Iraq (NOT Afghanistan, necessarily) wouldn't be bending to the demands of a "terror group that attacked us," it would be the people of this country taking it the hell back from a corrupt warmongering administration. Admitting that we made an error in fucking judgment by voting for an executive who would start a bullshit war and representatives who would keep throwing money down the Black Hole of Baghdad.

"That" i assume is my post. I make no asumptions about what "Die Fucking Americans Die Die Die ™©" group happens to be in X nation. Afganistan Part II will (and has) brought rise to many terrorist groups that never existed before. Even more will spring up in its wake, just depends on how big we want the wake to be.

They are there in the middle east, they want us dead. It doesn't matter if they have the AQ banner or not. Terroists just want massive dead piles of non-muslims in general and americans in particular.. if some other people get in the way so be it. Satan leaves, all terroist groups get a nice fat +1000 powerup.

Also, theres the whole "pulling out might be better" part of that post , which doesnt have anything remotely to do with any finger pointing. There WILL be an ameican civilian bodycount in the wake of us pulling out of Iraq. Just depends on if your threshold for civilian pain is higher than your threshold for military pain. If the estimated civilian bodycount is fairly low , then yeah, pull out.

[BrassFusion]

When was the last time Iraqis attacked us on our soil?

[Steven]

this really isnt a simple subject easily painted in "the smart vs the dumb" and the "good vs the bad" in terms of forigen policy.

thank you. there have been so many over the top and passionate responses to this subject that have amounted to basically tearing one another down. And the fact of the matter is that its just not that simple, nor will/can any of our current online trash talkers influence the change theyd like to see.

Its fun to think we have the right solution but its just not something i think that is in existence. Anything we do , or dont do will have unhappy consequences.

thank you. this world is a different place than it was in the 70's kiddies. and the pressures and global threats continue to compound and sub divide.

This is sort of Vietnam XXXtreme.

thank you. seems to be that the overall history of this region in general, is one far far beyond our western grasp of decency and order. We simply do not "get it", nor are we equipped to do so.

Would they even give a shit about Iraq in particular if there wasnt massive buckets of liquid gold over there? Probably not.

thank you. your probably right. is int this why wars in genereal, are fought. you got - what I want?

But, every credible senario i've read says terrorism will increase , in no small amount, with our pullout of the region. Maybe we dont have clearly defined 'victory conditions' but the terrorists sure do. "Get the great satan out of our land." We pullout? They win. Right now their targets are well-trained military folk, unfortunately for them. Guess were the next battlefield will be? I can tell u it wont be Islamabad.

thank you. I beleive this is true. I also beleive that this is/was inevitable regardless of our infidel intrusion into their holy lands. We just stepped it up a bit. I think the great battles will be fought in the ports of Los Angeles and the plains of Dallas and on the cobblestone streets of Boston.

Our buddies A-Q were basically "made" by Russias pullout of Afganistan (to massivly oversimplify) and that was small potatoes. This is BIG TIME. Whats gonna happen when the ultimate superpower of the world bows to terrorists pressures? It wont be tea and crumpets with the queen i can assure you.

thank you. our status as the ultimate superpower is kind of wavering now anyway dont you think? technology and our precarious financial state of being as a nation is rapidly leveling the playing field. I dont think the world neccesarrily views us as a superpower anymore like they used to do. And I think that within our lifetimes we will cease to be one.

It was the terrorist leaders wet dream to have the USA directly intervene over there. That gave them a direct way to "fight the great satan". Afganistan Part II. The best possible scenario for every terrorist org worth its salt is for us to pull out. That will be the best terrorist recruitment tool that ever existed. "We blew their asses up on their home soil.. they came over here looking for vengeance, and WE SENT THEM PACKING... Praise Allah!! Look we just beat satan... sign up here. "

thank you. sad but true. were long overdue for America to reap a bitter harvest. I fear what were made of (or specifically - what were nto made of anymore) when that time comes due.

[Steven]

All that assumes that insurgent groups in Iraq have a link to Al Qaeda, or had something to do with attacking us in 2001. They don't, and they didn't. Pulling our troops out of Iraq (NOT Afghanistan, necessarily) wouldn't be bending to the demands of a "terror group that attacked us," it would be the people of this country taking it the hell back from a corrupt warmongering administration. Admitting that we made an error in fucking judgment by voting for an executive who would start a bullshit war and representatives who would keep throwing money down the Black Hole of Baghdad.

this isint something you really know for sure Brass, none of us do.

We talk about terrorist organizations - and that is the right descriptive - as terrorist groups in general seem to have the ability to set their border and faction differences aside in thier mutual hatred for America. Its nothing new to consider that they may be linked in a loose web. Its not a far stretch at all to beleive they have been mutually supportive with one another in terms of finance, sanctuary, sharing technology, etc.

and - there have been many - many -thwarted terrorist attacks on our home soil int he last 15 years. All of which stay under the public radar.

and you keep arguing the point with western logic that pertains soley to ourselves - the Middle Eastern joe schmoe with a rocket launcher is not going to consider the argument you just presented. For them its much more black and white Allah be praised death to the infidel. And the agresion on our home soil will escelate.

[BrassFusion]

So, again... when did Iraq attack us on our own soil? Because they CERTAINLY have no ties to Al Qaeda. Our administration didn't admit to *lying* about this, but they DID admit several times that they found no link between the Iraqi government and the terror cells. And I'm sure they were looking. They wanted to justify what turned out to be a bullshit sandy witch hunt, but they couldn't. It's been four years, and no WMD's. No link to international terrorist organizations. No reason.

We have more justification for occupying/neutralizing a whole host of other countries than we do Iraq, but resources won't allow us to invade *all* of them.

Edit: I really don't give a shit about the thwarted "terrorist attacks." If they want public support for a bungled war, they should TELL US how many of those attacks were masterminded by Iraqi government officials... but I bet I already know what the answer is. We can't just keep writing them a blank moral check, "here you go, bomb whoever the hell you want as long as you PROMISE it's in our best interest!" NO.

[Steven]

So, again... when did Iraq attack us on our own soil? Because they CERTAINLY have no ties to Al Qaeda. Our administration didn't admit to *lying* about this, but they DID admit several times that they found no link between the Iraqi government and the terror cells. And I'm sure they were looking. They wanted to justify what turned out to be a bullshit sandy witch hunt, but they couldn't. It's been four years, and no WMD's. No link to international terrorist organizations. No reason.

We have more justification for occupying/neutralizing a whole host of other countries than we do Iraq, but resources won't allow us to invade *all* of them.

Edit: I really don't give a shit about the thwarted "terrorist attacks." If they want public support for a bungled war, they should TELL US how many of those attacks were masterminded by Iraqi government officials... but I bet I already know what the answer is. We can't just keep writing them a blank moral check, "here you go, bomb whoever the hell you want as long as you PROMISE it's in our best interest!" NO.

you will start to give a shit, when those attempts begin to prove successful. And as always, it wont truly be clear exactly who was involved and to what degree.

I agree that we cannot go on writing a blank moral check - I'll give you that. But its also not as simple a process as you at least seem to make it appear to be.

Quick question to you by the way.....what do you do with the evidence of WMD that Saddam used against "other" people in the past...."proven" evidence? And what do you suppose was going on after our first foray into Iraq - when the overseeing parties involved with checking WMD for years were being barred from doign their inspections, held off at gunpoint, etc etc etc. ? Is it reasonable to assume that "sumthin" was going on?

[BrassFusion]

you will start to give a shit, when those attempts begin to prove successful. And as always, it wont truly be clear exactly who was involved and to what degree.

I agree that we cannot go on writing a blank moral check - I'll give you that. But its also not as simple a process as you at least seem to make it appear to be.

Quick question to you by the way.....what do you do with the evidence of WMD that Saddam used against "other" people in the past...."proven" evidence? And what do you suppose was going on after our first foray into Iraq - when the overseeing parties involved with checking WMD for years were being barred from doign their inspections, held off at gunpoint, etc etc etc. ? Is it reasonable to assume that "sumthin" was going on?

Yeah, no shit dude, remember 9/11? Successful attack! Parties responsible clearly identified (for the sake of argument)! Retaliation: completely botched! Why should I have any faith in the government's ability to protect me or determine who the biggest threat to my well-being is?

Your problem is faith, Steven. It's one thing to invest it in an ephemeral father figure who's not wasting my tax dollars, but other than that, it's entirely misplaced.

[Steven]

Yeah, no shit dude, remember 9/11? Successful attack! Parties responsible clearly identified (for the sake of argument)! Retaliation: completely botched! Why should I have any faith in the government's ability to protect me or determine who the biggest threat to my well-being is?

Your problem is faith, Steven. It's one thing to invest it in an ephemeral father figure who's not wasting my tax dollars, but other than that, it's entirely misplaced.

hmmm, I have bigger problems than faith, Babe. In fact I suspect that my transmission is going on my hoopty.

ok. nuff said.

and dont forget that same world trade center was hit before 9-11 - it just didint go off well. Remember something about me too Brass, I know what it feels like to have an alert to respond to, and to have to sniff out a possible explosive from a few feet away with a bomb dog, and to think "holy shit this fucked up world might lay claim to my life this afternoon and I'm supposed to play frisbee tommorow".

I dont place as much faith in our government as you might think.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Yeah, no shit dude, remember 9/11? Successful attack! Parties responsible clearly identified (for the sake of argument)! Retaliation: completely botched! Why should I have any faith in the government's ability to protect me or determine who the biggest threat to my well-being is?

Your problem is faith, Steven. It's one thing to invest it in an ephemeral father figure who's not wasting my tax dollars, but other than that, it's entirely misplaced.

This sort of hair-splitting doesnt matter to the terrorists. We are there to destroy Islam. (in their minds) It doesnt matter what other reasons we give, or gave. They are there to kill us and drive us out of the holy land. Once thats accomplished you think they are just gonna pack up and call it a day? Hah. Job one will be to kill any and everyone that backed us, then find some nice juicy american civilian targets to blow up.

They could care less why we originally went over there or if george bush is a bastard or what some soccer mom that has no clue about the global implications of little johnny getting killed over there means. We leave, they win, the terrorist threat increases. Is it to large of an increase to risk? Maybe, maybe not.

The blame-game is fun, and its a nessisary game. But the stakes are far to high to let the blame-game blind us to the larger implications of what we do over there. What we do over there , from now on, needs to e based on the OUTCOME of what we do, not some need for political finger pointing.

Its not some little squabble about tax cuts, this is the defining situation of this generation. "becasue we had no good reason to go over there in the first place" while perhaps true, is far too petty a reason to pull out given the massive gravity of the situation. Im not saying "no way never dont pull out" just the blame-game is a bad system by witch to decide if we should stay over there or not.

See my previous post(s). They cover it the situation pretty clearly i think.

[BrassFusion]

This sort of hair-splitting doesnt matter to the terrorists. We are there to destroy Islam. (in their minds) It doesnt matter what other reasons we give, or gave. They are there to kill us and drive us out of the holy land. Once thats accomplished you think they are just gonna pack up and call it a day? Hah. Job one will be to kill any and everyone that backed us, then find some nice juicy american civilian targets to blow up.

That may describe Al Qaeda, but how does it describe Iraq? You say "they," but... Who ARE "they?" How many brown people do we have to kill before we've neutralized all potential threats?

Does our government think the answer is "all of them?"

[Steven]

That may describe Al Qaeda, but how does it describe Iraq? You say "they," but... Who ARE "they?" How many brown people do we have to kill before we've neutralized all potential threats?

Does our government think the answer is "all of them?"

hmmm....that was a little too simplistic I think.

Al Qaeda = bad.

everyone (of the Haji influence) other than Al Qaeda = Good.

"other" Brown People = Under Review, TBD.

It will be interesting (to say the least) to see how people align themselves once we do get hardcore F'd in the A here in america.

[BrassFusion]

i'm not saying that all "hadjis" other than al qaeda are automatically "good," but we can't just go around killing everyone who doesn't decisively fall into the "bad" category. hell, we'd have our hands full enough doing that. how about we only kill in self-defense?

[Steven]

i'm not saying that all "hadjis" other than al qaeda are automatically "good," but we can't just go around killing everyone who doesn't decisively fall into the "bad" category. hell, we'd have our hands full enough doing that. how about we only kill in self-defense?

if it were only just that simple.......

[Shade Everdark]

if it were only just that simple.......

Why isn't it?

[Steven]

Why isn't it?

because of how we are as a species.

because of how our global history presents us in general.

because we like to think were above our past history and that we have evolved but the hard facts state otherwise because were still killing each other in record numbers all over the world and countless people are still starving while old school epidemics and mutating into new versions and we have no sense of self and the family had been re-christened as a new and powerless but non threatening PC vehicle and because basic human fears still run rampant and because premptive measures in terms of enemy conflict have always been here and always will.

[BrassFusion]

Then why did most every other industrialized nation back out on us when we started our pre-emptive measures with an obviously BS justification? THEY figured it out...

[Steven]

Then why did most every other industrialized nation back out on us when we started our pre-emptive measures with an obviously BS justification? THEY figured it out...

not all of them.

and all of them, do the same sorts of things on their own. Thats what task forces, espionage, and the like are for. The problem wiht this little ditty is that it was on a world stage with everybody watching, and the internet has changed the rules. Nobody is as squeaky clean as you'd like to think (possibly think).