This Is Sick.

[sinmantyx]

Well, pardon my intrusion. I simply thought it might be good to put into perspective the real Holocaust.

Besides it always shows an added insensitivity to make comments of that nature on a day like this.

Kind of like Bush rolling back civil rights on MLK's B-day.

I agree that pulling out "the Holocaust" is generally really tasteless. It's like yelling "Hitler" every two seconds to try to make a point: thus the reason for Godwin's Law.

It isn't the same thing, but to be very frank the issue does include some of the same fundamental elements. Fear and anger being used to justify violence and the errosion of civil rights for a particular population that is considered undesireable; without reasonable regard for the actual actions of the individual.

Don't read what any person has wrote here, however, to be interpreted that somehow that colored license plates and sex offenders lists are the *same* thing as stars or triangles; or that vigilantes torturing and killing people is the *same* as mass killings.

I can understand that discussing the issue in that context is very uncomfortable. It reminds me of being at a culturel diversity conference and some of the black delegates being very annoyed that the committee considered sexual orientation and disability status as "diversity issues"...because they felt that, because we felt the committee also served their needs, that we were lumping race into the same catagory as sexual orientation and disability status. I can imagine, if they believed that homosexuality was a sin and that all homosexuals were sickos, that they had no desire to somehow be placed in the same catagory, regardless of how broad that catagory is. (PLEASE, do not interpret what I am saying to mean that *I* believe pedophilia and homosexuality are the same --- only that the attitudes about them are similiar for some people.)

Likewise, making vague parallels is NOT the same thing as comparing the Jewish people to pedophiles! I agree that any such implication would be extremely offensive and insulting. I do apologize if anything that I said gave you that impression.

[bean]

I'm sorry, but that website is fucking sick. Thoughts can turn into actions. Yes, I know, not all of them will act on their thoughts, but some of them will.

The laws need to be modified a bit maybe, worded different or something, so that 18 year olds who fuck their 17 year old significant other don't get the same torture that actual pedophiles deserve.

And I'm sorry, but an 80 year old that fucks a 6 year old is fucking sick now and that shit was fucking sick 100 years ago. Those people deserve every bit of pain and punishment they get.

Just my opinion.

[sinmantyx]

Now when they were 13 sometimes old icky like 55 yr old guys would stare to the point of making them uncomfortable....and they were JUST budding if you know what I mean, a bit of late bloomers in the physical department which made it extra strange for these old perverts to be looking at them, leering at them...with those thoughts...and not even trying to hide it. As if making them uncomfortable in front of me turned them on. Well I gave dirty looks and even got vocal about it on occasion. Fuck you for making my kids feel wierd just for going out into public NOT dressed sexy at all. Ya old perv.!!!!

I agree. Fuck 'em. Seriously, if they are making your child feel uncomfortable, they are acting in an unreasonable way and you and your children certainly shouldn't tolerate it.

There is a physiological response that makes it difficult for anyone not to stare at something they find either violent or sexual. You actually lose the ability to focus on anything else. That's why it is really difficult not to stare at car accidents on the side of the road even when you know it's a very bad idea to do so.

However, we aren't animals. That may be a small part of the explanation, but it's no excuse for being rude. If they can't or won't stop themselves from taking those actions, they need to do something to prevent themselves from being in a situation where they may cause harm. That's the way it is.

[BrassFusion]

I'm sorry, but that website is fucking sick. Thoughts can turn into actions. Yes, I know, not all of them will act on their thoughts, but some of them will.

The laws need to be modified a bit maybe, worded different or something, so that 18 year olds who fuck their 17 year old significant other don't get the same torture that actual pedophiles deserve.

And I'm sorry, but an 80 year old that fucks a 6 year old is fucking sick now and that shit was fucking sick 100 years ago. Those people deserve every bit of pain and punishment they get.

Just my opinion.

What if a 6 year old fucks a 30 year old? Have we gone too far in repressing childhood sexuality, to the point where we're doing more harm to our societal norms than good in terms of limiting child and/or woman exploitation?

[pomba gira]

The conversation drifted from the original notion of a man having a website about his desires, to the fact that reasonable distinctions aren't made by many many people.

People don't distinguish between an inclination and an action. People don't distinguish between someone who is a sexual predator and someone who is seduced by a manipulative and deceptive 13 year old. People don't distinguish between "an 18 year-old screwing her 17 year-old boyfriend" and someone who actively tries to rape children.

The comparison that was made may have been heavy handed; but the fact remains that we are torturing, threatening, and ruining the lives of people (right now) who have not committed horrible crimes by lumping them in with the few that have...and justifying ourselves through fear and anger.

It's the truth..and I've seen it happen. ALOT

While real molesters are not reported and fail to be stopped by legal intervention (usually because they are trusted family members); we (as a society) are misplacing our anger and frustration on the crazy stranger who is an easier target...who many people claim that they would like to 1) torture 2) kill on sight and 3) are currently herding into camps. It's a total witch-hunt that really has to stop.

The distinction here is that the author of the website is explaining a desire and distinctly explaining that he has no plans to act on these desires in harmful ways. What is going on in his is brain might be very upsetting to many of us, but if those inclinations are not manifested in harmful actions, branding him as a "child rapist" is not cool.

Unless of course, you believe that thinking about or wanting something is the same as doing it. If so, I think we'd all be in prison for very long periods of time after the "Thought Police" rounded us up.

And if those license plates became the law of the land, people would not stop to wonder which scenario earned it for the driver of the car they saw it on... they would simply commit acts of hatred and violence on the assumption that this is some child rapist who deserves whatever they get. That was the point Sinmantyx & I were making- that once we go into automatic persecution mode, we don't stop to make distinctions. And people get hurt whether they've really done anything to deserve it or not. Like the innocent people who are still in prison as a result of the "satanic ritual child molestation" cases that kept srpinging up a decade or so ago... despite it having been acknowledged that those cases were almost all total fabrications bolstered by flawed child questioning techniques and public hysteria. And you know what? I am not trying to belittle anyone's horrific suffering, whether it took place in 1940s Europe or this morning in Darfour- but I would wager that those people would have no qualms comparing their situation to the ones Eternal described. And if it were me, I'd probably feel the same way.

[bean]

What if a 6 year old fucks a 30 year old? Have we gone too far in repressing childhood sexuality, to the point where we're doing more harm to our societal norms than good in terms of limiting child and/or woman exploitation?

Wow.

Are you saying it's ok for a 6 year old and a 30 year old to have sex? That is seriously fucked up. Seriously.

[Homicidalheathen]

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...757C0A96F958260

I wonder if he gave them opium and mushrooms and other stuff too....I think most of it was legal and if you were rich, attainable...

I mean, look at Alice in Wonderland. She eats things, smoks things and drinks things....and changes...

http://www.biblio.com/authors/610/Lewis_Ca..._Biography.html

[the eternal]

I'm sorry PG, but that's bullshit.

Where Scary Guy crossed the line was when he described the next step as

"Then it's into the pedoven they go."

That's when I lost it.

Below is an excerpt from a survivors tale in another thread---

"I saw when the transports came. I saw the people who were going in,

who to the right and who to the left.

I saw who was going to the gas chambers.

I saw the people going to the real showers, and I saw the people going to the gas.

In August and September of 1944 I saw them throw living children into the crematorium. That is when we saw them grab the little children by the head and the leg and throw them into the crematoria alive. They would grab them by an arm and a leg and throw them in."

To compare pedophiles or even statuatory couples is just sick.

I love to you to death PG, but I swear to g-d,

if you said this comparison to my face, I would just want to hurt you.

And that's saying something, considering I accepted the swastikas you have around your place.

[Hellion]

Don't forget altar boys, they're victims too.

I wonder how many priests exist on the list though?

Yeah aint that the truth

[Homicidalheathen]

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3034040&page=1

More sicko's. Watch the video.

I was about 14 when My youth director made a pass at me....he was a sicko old guy with 7 kids.

Needless to say I stopped going to church after that.

[BrassFusion]

Wow.

Are you saying it's ok for a 6 year old and a 30 year old to have sex? That is seriously fucked up. Seriously.

No, I didn't.

The fact that you inferred that when I very much DIDN'T say it speaks to how out of hand the sex taboo has gotten.

[bean]

No, I didn't.

The fact that you inferred that when I very much DIDN'T say it speaks to how out of hand the sex taboo has gotten.

Then what exactly did you mean by your post? Enlighten me.

[BrassFusion]

I said, "what if?" What if 6-year-olds WEREN'T taught that sexuality was inherently a bad thing, and were allowed to explore and express it at a young age? Would we be better off?

Given, a 6-yo and a 30-yo is an extreme example. In other cultures where child sexuality isn't discouraged, it's more that kids playing "doctor" is considered normal and healthy. I believe, in those tribal cultures, pedophilia is still more or less taboo. I could be wrong.

[bean]

...but I would wager that those people would have no qualms comparing their situation to the ones Eternal described. And if it were me, I'd probably feel the same way.

You can't even compare the situations. NO FUCKING WAY. Wow. They aren't even CLOSE to being similar.

[bean]

I said, "what if?" What if 6-year-olds WEREN'T taught that sexuality was inherently a bad thing, and were allowed to explore and express it at a young age? Would we be better off?

Given, a 6-yo and a 30-yo is an extreme example. In other cultures where child sexuality isn't discouraged, it's more that kids playing "doctor" is considered normal and healthy. I believe, in those tribal cultures, pedophilia is still more or less taboo. I could be wrong.

Thank you for clarifying, as that wasn't what you were saying in the post in question.

Keeping your child safe from perverts is NOT the same thing as teaching them that sexuality is inherently a bad thing.

[Scary Guy]

I'm sorry PG, but that's bullshit.

Where Scary Guy crossed the line was when he described the next step as

"Then it's into the pedoven they go."

That's when I lost it.

Below is an excerpt from a survivors tale in another thread---

"I saw when the transports came. I saw the people who were going in,

who to the right and who to the left.

I saw who was going to the gas chambers.

I saw the people going to the real showers, and I saw the people going to the gas.

In August and September of 1944 I saw them throw living children into the crematorium. That is when we saw them grab the little children by the head and the leg and throw them into the crematoria alive. They would grab them by an arm and a leg and throw them in."

To compare pedophiles or even statuatory couples is just sick.

I love to you to death PG, but I swear to g-d,

if you said this comparison to my face, I would just want to hurt you.

And that's saying something, considering I accepted the swastikas you have around your place.

Sorry, but it is the truth. First off let me say that I have many jewish friends (even if they're only common people). My best friend is Jewish and I knew Henry Friedman personally as he worked with my dad at GM (look up holocaust art, specifically that which is machined and welded together, he's even made us a few pieces).

I'm not saying that jews are pedophiles, because that would just be stupid (I'm sure some are but obviously not all of them). No I'm comparing the situation here, and eventually they'll probably get thrown into "camps" and maybe they won't be killed off and burnt away in ovens. Maybe they'll just get poison in their food or shot directly and then buried. They have one thing in common obviously and I think everyone can see this by now... their persecution and hatred by their oppressors. The only difference there is that with the jews it was the nazi's, with pedos it's 95% of the world.

Also again what's wrong with the swastika exactly? http://www.heathenworld.com/swastika Not that you'd catch me sporting one in this day and age but before the Nazis got a hold of it and turned it to slime, it was a symbol of good luck (though I'm sure you knew this already).

BTW I don't need a specific day to remember the travesty, I remember it all year long when I look at Henry's art.

EDIT: You can see some of his art too at http://www.chaim2g.org (I mean actually going physically, not on the site). I was pretty happy when I went there in 7th grade and saw it. I was like "I know that guy, he's cool" and got an A for "Association" lol

[bean]

Um, Jews didn't do anything to anyone. Pedophiles (the ones that really did do the shit ) MOLESTED CHILDREN. They deserve whatever the fuck they get. I'm not talking about the 18 year old that screws their 16 year old boy/girlfriend. I'm talking about the fuckers that mess with CHILDREN.

[Scary Guy]

Um, Jews didn't do anything to anyone. Pedophiles (the ones that really did do the shit ) MOLESTED CHILDREN. They deserve whatever the fuck they get. I'm not talking about the 18 year old that screws their 16 year old boy/girlfriend. I'm talking about the fuckers that mess with CHILDREN.

I hate them just as much as you do, but I still admit they have rights. Also the falsely accused pedos and terrorists are screwed. Welcome the modern day leper, the withces, etc...."

I like that "Jews didn't do anything to anyone, witches use magic and other ungodly things BURN THEM ALL"

But seriously pedophiles need to be burned alive.

But sanely they need to be locked away where they can't hurt anyone anymore and get the help that they require.

[bean]

I hate them just as much as you do, but I still admit they have rights. Also the falsely accused pedos and terrorists are screwed. Welcome the modern day leper, the withces, etc...."

I like that "Jews didn't do anything to anyone, witches use magic and other ungodly things BURN THEM ALL"

But seriously pedophiles need to be burned alive.

But sanely they need to be locked away where they can't hurt anyone anymore and get the help that they require.

Sanely, I agree with you. Insanely, I still say BURN THEM ALL (the pedophiles..the ones that really did it).

But, they do need to be locked away, yes.

[sinmantyx]

I said, "what if?" What if 6-year-olds WEREN'T taught that sexuality was inherently a bad thing, and were allowed to explore and express it at a young age? Would we be better off?

Given, a 6-yo and a 30-yo is an extreme example. In other cultures where child sexuality isn't discouraged, it's more that kids playing "doctor" is considered normal and healthy. I believe, in those tribal cultures, pedophilia is still more or less taboo. I could be wrong.

There are cases where the young person simply doesn't see the problem with it: enjoys the attention, etc. Then when it is found out, they are told that *it* was wrong and horrible and that they are victims and the other person involved is a sick awful individual and deserves to die for what they did.

I don't think that helps.

It's almost as bad as the concept that being raped is worse than being killed (which is actually something I was practically convinced of for a while...thank god I didn't have that awful experience or I probably would have off'ed myself thanks to my bizarre socialization). I don't think it helps people recover from a horrible experience for society to impose an expectation that it is the most unspeakably awful singular experience that you could ever have in your entire life and you should be *expected* to suffer forever and ever.

Having an experience of anything from inappropriate touching to a horrific act of sexual battery; must be extremely difficult to deal with on many levels. I only know how my own experiences have affected me; and some information about how friends of mine have lived with varying sexual abuse in their lives. One was routinely inappropriately touched by a close family member when she was young. I think we all know someone who has been a victim of sexual battery; and I know several - both men and women.

I've been lucky enough not to have either of those experiences. My foster-brother, however, did some *interesting* things to me...that (if I remember right, I was about 5 or 6) he saw his mother and her "clients" do. It seemed kinda weird, but I only vaguely remember it and to this day it's just not a big deal. I'm actually pretty happy that I didn't mention it to anyone; cause it would have been MUCH worse for me if the people around me flew off the handle about it: punishing him for it and trying to *explain* to me why it was wrong. However, the fact that he hit me all the time at school wasn't treated like a big deal...that's what really messed my head up...not some weird experiment under the stairs. THAT seemed to be treated like normal sibling fighting. So, I guess doing a few unmentionable things under the stairs is worse than being hit. I mean, even now I can talk about getting hit every day by my foster brother, but I'm not mentioning what happened under the stairs because I know *that* information would upset people. ?! Gosh, our priorities are confused.

I'm saying that sometimes the reaction to the crime just contributes to the damage caused by the crime. Such as the case where a young girl was fondled by a man. He was convicted and went to jail. He sought treatment in jail and there was no evidence that he was a habitual offender. He was released. He was restricted from having any contact with the girl after he was released. If he attempted contact or was seen in certain areas: he would go back to jail. After he was released, three female relatives of the girl, found the man and tortured and raped him (I'm not going to mentioned the details because I frankly don't want to think about it). The women went to jail...for being sadistic human beings that cared more about their own need for revenge. However unsettling the idea is that a man would touch a young girl sexually; in my opinion this man did not deserve "all the pain and torture" he got; and that young girl certainly deserved better than these three relatives that certainly did not have her best interests at heart when they used her situation as an excuse to perpetuate their own sick fantasies.

So yeah, sometimes I just think people have to calm down. Justice should be served. Do not get me wrong. Those who commit actual sexual crimes should be stopped, should receive a trial, and (if found guilty) should certainly pay the consequences...and if dangerous, should be kept separated from society (as I said: jail or a mental institution). What is stopping that from happening in many cases is the stigma surrounding the crime. Even though that stigma is aimed at the perpetrator; I think sometimes the blast of emotional outrage and extreme retaliation has the danger of also damaging the victim.

[BrassFusion]

That's EXACTLY what I was going for, sinmantyx. the relation between crime and society's reaction to it is very cyclical.

i'm not saying, "oh let's forgive chimos, because it should be normal and natural and it's society's fault for persecuting them." BECAUSE sex is taboo in our society, sex crimes ARE unacceptable.

But I don't think the world would explode if the taboo and the laws were to disappear at the same time.

As for stringing them up the nearest tree? No. Not in every case, anyway.

[sinmantyx]

Well, the fact that I mentioned my friend from college who had a fixation on preteens and teenagers; and never actually committed a crime; and nobody is trying to get his name and go shoot him --- makes me hopeful that people are being a bit sane.

Even with the author of the website that sparked the debate: nobody has suggested (as far as I can tell) that we should go shoot him.

So, maybe we are more on the same page than we think.

The habitual offenders mentioned in the article about Babtist ministers who happen to molest young people: I think we're all pretty happy that they will spend the rest of their lives in prison --- probably being probed by interested psychologists.

Sex offenders lists and license plates? I'm not happy with that. Increased ease of doing background checks with complete nationwide information on convictions --- that would be sweet!

Jail time and being kept in institutions if you are a danger to other --- fantastic! Guards looking the other way while convicted sex offenders are horribly tortured and possibly killed --- not so keen on that. (...and it happens all the time. I actually met a man who made a bundle of cigarettes in jail for beating the shit out of a man convicted of molesting and killing his own daughter. Not to say this guy didn't most likely "deserved it" more than almost every other human being on earth, but I'm not about to open the door that leads to perpetuating evil with more evil.)

[bean]

fucking christ.

[sinmantyx]

You can't even compare the situations. NO FUCKING WAY. Wow. They aren't even CLOSE to being similar.

As I said before: not the same. Some aspects: yes. All or even most aspects: no.

That license plate concept scares the piss out of me...especially considering how the laws are written. I accidently forgot to card a young couple that came into the porn store once because it was busy. They were in the store for about five minutes before I asked for ID. They promptly left.

If people only knew that those types of actions can put you on the list...*sigh*

I violated the "man act" once as well. That's awesome. I transported a minor over state lines for immoral purposes. Hilarious.

If some over-zealous prosecutor were to actually try to convict me of these so-called "crimes"; I couldn't live in many parts of the country because I would be forced out of most neighborhoods. If more neighborhoods enact these laws; I could end up in an isolated building some place, sleeping on the floor with a bunch of people who are also on the list. I might not be able to get a job and support myself...and some idiots might look through the list and call me up to threaten my life periodically...that is, if I could afford a phone. Chances are, I would live in fear of some vigilante finding the building we all lived in and trying to kill us all by burning it down.

The current course of law concerning "sex offenders" is really quite frightening; and it's going to be difficult for any politician to try to stem the tide without being branded as being "soft on sex crime". This should really be a concern of everyone.

[bean]

As I said before, I'm only referring to the fucks that molest children, not the rest of it.

The license plate thing is fucked up. I can agree with that.

I'm done. I've wasted enough time and energy banging my head against a wall.