Comparison

[Steven]

The day you can guarantee that ALL children born will have a someone who will love and raise them right out of the womb is the day that I'll consider having abortions outlawed for anything other then medical reasons or conception due to rape.

And yeah... I get that there are a lot of children born and raised by their parents who aren't really loved.

My point being that you have to weigh not only when life begins, but what kind of life the child will have. I find it far more cruel to subject a child to a life devoid of love and care then to cease their life in the womb.

I unbderstand yrou point here Mark, I do.

Its just that I (personally) dont find it far more cruel.

I was raised in poor circumstances and abused for years and didint even know my mother til I was a teen and when I did she was a addict wreck. My father raised us, beat us bloody with everything you could possibly imagine and mind fucked us with religion on top of it. My "family" (aunts, uncles, cousins etc...mexicans have large families) were witness to it all and never did a thing to intercede and in some cases covered it up. And we were broke ass broke and had to move constantly.

it was hard.

it fucked me up.

but Im extremely thankful to have my life and ability to look backward from where I am now.

I am extremely blessed to recognize the difference from what I was raised to become versus what I actually have become. And even my own addiction / hardcore years....as much as they pained me and many others, taught me a great deal.

to me everythign is worth it.

thats about as plain as I can make it.

had I been aborted to be spared that pain, DGN would be a much more broing place cause you'd all agree with each other....

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Touchy...

Abortion: I am against Roe vs. Wade but I am for Abortion. Rove vs Wade was crap. If you really read it , it does NOT make abortion legal. It makes it illegal to ask someone if they have had one or gave one. It's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" for abortions. It made a mockery of our Constitution and our Courts. I think it should be over turned but not until a real set of laws are in place to regualte SAFE abortions. Also, protection for Fathers need to be put in place either way. There are far too many cases of Men who have to pay support for a child that the in no way wanted but were never gien the choice in the matter or cases where they wanted the child but were never given the option.

As long as Men have no Rights they should have no liablilty.

It may be the woman's body, but the fetus is not part of the body... it's a symbiant at best that can't exist without the Man.

Also, if the fetus is capable of life in the case of a premature birth.. then it should not be legal to abort that Life.

Which is to say, I am for 1st trimester abortions... 2nd should be regulated and 3rd trimester should be illegal without some extreme medical risk for the mother.

Death Penalty: Fry them

[Msterbeau]

had I been aborted to be spared that pain, DGN would be a much more broing place cause you'd all agree with each other....

No we wouldn't.

I'm not trying to spare children the pains of growing up. Life's not always supposed to be easy. But to do it without the love and support of an adult from day 1 sucks and shouldn't be. Yeah... I'm an idealist.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

and Marc... I know a great deal of people that are not loved... are you for killing them too? Also, I'd like you to point to anything that says Love is a prerequisite for life.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

BTW, A fetus has a brain, nervous system and pumping heart by 8 weeks... recent studys show brain wave activity starting as soon as 2 weeks.

[Msterbeau]

and Marc... I know a great deal of people that are not loved... are you for killing them too? Also, I'd like you to point to anything that says Love is a prerequisite for life.

Nope. That would be murder. I agree with you... basically first trimester only. You think humans can truly live without love and interaction... ??? I don't need to point to anything but what I see and feel everyday to know that.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Your singular experiance does not the world make.

People live every day without Love. They still live.

[Steven]

No we wouldn't.

I'm not trying to spare children the pains of growing up. Life's not always supposed to be easy. But to do it without the love and support of an adult from day 1 sucks and shouldn't be. Yeah... I'm an idealist.

I did it without the love and support of an adult from day 1.

Now its year 41 and I'm still awful glad to be here.

[Steven]

Nope. That would be murder. I agree with you... basically first trimester only. You think humans can truly live without love and interaction... ??? I don't need to point to anything but what I see and feel everyday to know that.

something to consider Marc....

is that through that suffering can come some amazing people, if you'll just give them a chance.

I often think that I love as deeply as I do because I lived for so long without it.

and that I accept who I do because I was never accepted.

and I fight for those I love because nobody did for me.

[the eternal]

For the record Steven, even if you and Gaf went away tomorrow, we would still fight like cats and dogs.

Maybe about non-political things but still....

Actually no, because though you two are usually wrong, you are both personally likable.

So, if you two left this forum, and took away the superiority complex we get about always being right (or is that left?)then I would have to fight with incomprehesible angerballs, who I philosophically agree with,

but personally can't stand to see posting.

And we would fight amongst ourselves, about things like

paper clips

and speaker slips

and how locally grown coffee needs to rise up and defeat the evilness of non-locally grown coffee,

and other matters of equal importance,

as the left, when left by themselves, is known to do.

So, don't stay here on our account, we promise to fill up this forum with just as much hate and in-fighting after you're gone.

[Steven]

For the record Steven, even if you and Gaf went away tomorrow, we would still fight like cats and dogs.

Maybe about non-political things but still....

Actually no, because though you two are usually wrong, you are both personally likable.

So, if you two left this forum, and took away the superiority complex we get about always being right (or is that left?)then I would have to fight with incomprehesible angerballs, who I philosophically agree with,

but personally can't stand to see posting.

And we would fight amongst ourselves, about things like

paper clips

and speaker slips

and how locally grown coffee needs to rise up and defeat the evilness of non-locally grown coffee,

and other matters of equal importance,

as the left, when left by themselves, is known to do.

So, don't stay here on our account, we promise to fill up this forum with just as much hate and in-fighting after you're gone.

once again, had to chuckle....

[Msterbeau]

Your singular experiance does not the world make.

People live every day without Love. They still live.

Whatever. A life without love is no life. And I'm not talking about the love between adults. A child that grows up without love and nurturing is a shell and a mental wreck. What your saying is that's perfectly OK, and I vehemently disagree. Why would we subject a child to that?

[Msterbeau]

something to consider Marc....

is that through that suffering can come some amazing people, if you'll just give them a chance.

I often think that I love as deeply as I do because I lived for so long without it.

and that I accept who I do because I was never accepted.

and I fight for those I love because nobody did for me.

Here's a question. Would you willingly subject your child to what you went through?

[Steven]

Here's a question. Would you willingly subject your child to what you went through?

yes.

and I know that sounds harsh. and I know this may sound like a lame explanation...but I see it as similar to God sending his son to be heinously tortured and crucified for the benefit of others...

what I went thru - has everything to do with what I became and understand today,

That does not mean I would not greive if my child sufferred what I did, I would greive that definately. But I also know know that my life has affected the lives of others in a very positive way, both directly and indirectly, and sometimes even profoundly. And so along with life's greif come's the chance to celebrate.

anybody can hurt, or cause hurt. But not everybody can be a catalyst for change, only the willing can do that...

[know_buddy_kares]

You all will probably hate me for this... but I figured a touch of some dark humor that is relavent to this topic is in order to well... hopefully lighten things up...

you gotta admit.. this isn't as bad as my falcon punch picture..

[Steven]

Whatever. A life without love is no life. And I'm not talking about the love between adults. A child that grows up without love and nurturing is a shell and a mental wreck. What your saying is that's perfectly OK, and I vehemently disagree. Why would we subject a child to that?

I suppose Bro....for the hope that eventually love and nurturing will someday come along and empower that child to be greater than his or her former lot.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

eternal..

Actually no, because though you two are usually wrong, you are both personally likable.

you had the incorrect wording there... it should have been....

Actually no, because though you two are usually correct, you are both personally likable.

Marc, if we used your standards then we should just get rid of adoption right now and kill all those orphans unless someone is found to adopt them before they are born.

Also, you and I... have no say in this as it stands. No matter what the law is... we have no control when it comes to our babys being born or not. Men have no reproductive rights.

[jadnifer]

quick question then...

what do say to the evidence that suggests that a forming fetus DOES feel physical pain in the abortion proces?

That it even tries to swim away or crawl away from the medical devices that are attempting to kill it?

There is more than enough evidence to prove that the fetus does feel pain. It does recoil from the needle and try to get away. Even when they are doing aminocentesis, the baby can feel that.

[jadnifer]

You can't feel pain without a nervous system. Moreover, God is the biggest abortionist that ever was... millions of miscarriages happen every year...

I agree that you cant feel pain without a nervous system...that is true. But by the time that a woman knows she is pregnant, the baby already has a nervous system and can feel EVERYTHING that you do to it.

As far as the God thing goes, my believe is that he isnt taking it away for no reason. Sometimes its the action of the woman that causes it, Sometimes its an accident that causes it, if it God as you say then he took it for a very good reason such as something would have been wrong with the child at birth for example. To blame that all on God just doesnt seem fair to me.

[jadnifer]

I'm not getting into this fracas, but I will say that Jadnifer is in very esteemed company.

Her point is the exact one that Mother Theresa made when she would speak to the masses.

That said, Jadnifer, you aint no Mother Theresa

Point well taken....I already knew this. Im VERY far from it. LOL!

[Msterbeau]

[jadnifer]

KBK...man you are a friend of mine...but Good golly!!! IMO that pic just aint cool.

[know_buddy_kares]

Oh trust me I could have done worse..... I figured that picture would ruin a few people's taste for eggs BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[Steven]

I agree that you cant feel pain without a nervous system...that is true. But by the time that a woman knows she is pregnant, the baby already has a nervous system and can feel EVERYTHING that you do to it.

As far as the God thing goes, my believe is that he isnt taking it away for no reason. Sometimes its the action of the woman that causes it, Sometimes its an accident that causes it, if it God as you say then he took it for a very good reason such as something would have been wrong with the child at birth for example. To blame that all on God just doesnt seem fair to me.

that whole statement from you know who was just designed to start an uproar.

we had miscarriages trying to get pregnant, and in fact never could stay pregnant, which is why we dont have kids.

I dont blame God. i dont "blame" anything, if her body could hold onto a developing baby then it would, this is just life, simetimes it just is what it is and fate decides.

however - to insert stainless steel devices into the womb of a woman and to remove by force a developing thing that has not left the womb on its own in light of convenience.....that is not fate, that is a willful decision.

[saechalyn]

It all comes down to a question of values. Is the value of a human embryo/zygote/fetus greater than the value of the will of the woman who carries it? Does the life of a human being who has committed an atrocious crime still have value? To answer Jadnifer's original question, I do see how a person could answer yes to question A and no to question B.

As for where I stand, well I work at Planned Parenthood (in case you missed the first 999 times I mentioned it) and I am in favor of abortion rights. I didn't read through all the answers here so I won't address all the side issues (unless you want me to- what the hell, throw em at me).

I have mixed feelings about the death penalty. On one hand, if someone murdered my best friend, you can bet your ass I'd want that person to die. But is that a good basis from which to make such a judgment? I don't know. I remember that after taking criminology in college I had some serious reservations about the way the death penalty is implemented in this country. At the end of the page, I can just say I'm glad this one isn't up to me.