Comparison

[EAF (1)]

Well I am for both...and here is why...

Without either...people who are set on them WOULD carry them out themselves. If a woman wants an abortion she can have some person, "doctor", out of the black market do it or hell even do it herself. Same thing with the death penalty, if the majority of a town believed the person should be killed, hey and "eye for an eye" it WOULD and could very well happen far more easily than what may be believed.

As far as my personal values go though...I could kill another person given correct circumstance through simply an emotional detatchment and the ablility to rationalize what I am doing so I do believe in the death penalty...as long as they CAN PROVE it was that person. Many people have been executed by accident only to later be cleared of what they were acussed of.

However I do not think I could ever get an abortion because of the how close I would be to it...to me it would be alive and I couldn't bring myself to go through with it even if I was raped, but I am pro-choice and would not condem someone for getting an abortion, because I do believe in circumstance and people's responsiblility to make their own desicions for the things they decide to involve in their lives.

[sass_in_the_pants]

See, that begs the question.. what ARE you before you're born? What are you before you've even been concieved between two people? Is it any more right to deny an egg to be firtilized by a sperm than aborting an unborn fetus? Most would say an egg is life, and a sperm is life, so What are you? You've got to draw the line somewhere, why not at birth?

Why isn't it immoral for us to think that ejaculating without implantion wrong? That's a form of life, it may not have arms and legs, but it has the indredients to HAVE arms and legs and a brain (and you sentimental people out there, a soul). What makes that sperm and that egg that you pass every once a month not valid? So are we commiting a moral sin once a month (us women) if we go through our periods? We're in essence telling that egg in our bodies they don't have the right to life... and us men who ejaculate with no intention of planting, in essence you're murdering if you want to begin life at that stage.. See where I'm going with this?

So the question is where does life happen? Where does it begin? Where do you draw the lines, and I'm not really asking for your opinions per se, because I know I'm going to get opinionated answers and not solid fact based answers.

The difference between sperm, eggs, and zygotes, I think is pretty clear.

A sperm, if not joined with an egg becomes...nothing.

An egg, if not joined with sperm becomes...also nothing.

A zygote, however, becomes a you and me and Britney Spears and Mother Theresa.

That's the difference. An egg, alone, is not human life. Neither is sperm. A zygote, however, is. It has EVERY single component that it will ever use in it's life (except kneecaps...how weird is that). All it requires is a place to grow. That's the difference - something entirely new has been created, and something that, just given some time, will be completely independent.

If life doesn't begin until birth, what the hell was kicking inside of me for 37 weeks? Those little flutters in my stomach...I wasn't making that happen, so what was, if there was nothing living inside of me? What was hiccuping?

Here's what I think is so funny about the abortion debate. It is ONLY when discussing abortion that the 'human-ness' of a fetus is ever debated. When my ob/gyn said I was pregnant she did not then say 'Now, let's find out if it's a human' No, it was pretty much a given that it was a person.

[Shade Everdark]

It all comes down to a question of values. Is the value of a human embryo/zygote/fetus greater than the value of the will of the woman who carries it? Does the life of a human being who has committed an atrocious crime still have value? To answer Jadnifer's original question, I do see how a person could answer yes to question A and no to question B.

As for where I stand, well I work at Planned Parenthood (in case you missed the first 999 times I mentioned it) and I am in favor of abortion rights. I didn't read through all the answers here so I won't address all the side issues (unless you want me to- what the hell, throw em at me).

I have mixed feelings about the death penalty. On one hand, if someone murdered my best friend, you can bet your ass I'd want that person to die. But is that a good basis from which to make such a judgment? I don't know. I remember that after taking criminology in college I had some serious reservations about the way the death penalty is implemented in this country. At the end of the page, I can just say I'm glad this one isn't up to me.

As sad as it may sound, I base my opinion on the death penalty on the Lord of the Rings. And I quote:

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."

[Steven]

As sad as it may sound, I base my opinion on the death penalty on the Lord of the Rings. And I quote:

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."

the person who said that needs to die

(jest)

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

He is dead.

[Steven]

The difference between sperm, eggs, and zygotes, I think is pretty clear.

A sperm, if not joined with an egg becomes...nothing.

An egg, if not joined with sperm becomes...also nothing.

A zygote, however, becomes a you and me and Britney Spears and Mother Theresa.

That's the difference. An egg, alone, is not human life. Neither is sperm. A zygote, however, is. It has EVERY single component that it will ever use in it's life (except kneecaps...how weird is that). All it requires is a place to grow. That's the difference - something entirely new has been created, and something that, just given some time, will be completely independent.

If life doesn't begin until birth, what the hell was kicking inside of me for 37 weeks? Those little flutters in my stomach...I wasn't making that happen, so what was, if there was nothing living inside of me? What was hiccuping?

Here's what I think is so funny about the abortion debate. It is ONLY when discussing abortion that the 'human-ness' of a fetus is ever debated. When my ob/gyn said I was pregnant she did not then say 'Now, let's find out if it's a human' No, it was pretty much a given that it was a person.

exactly.

even the doctor congragulated us when we were finnaly pregnant......joked with us about diapers, etc etc etc....but when she had the miscarriage, "baby" became a "blighted ovum".

[hunhee]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be harsh (and I know I'll offend most of you here), but I don't see anyone having a funeral for a miscarriage. I could see maybe when it was at the age of viability (say, third trimester), but before that, I don't see it happening.

And Sas, actually the Chinese consider you 1 years old when you come out of the womb. So some of the world does believe that you've got age value before birth. Why don't we do it in the states?

The Country certainly doesn't hand you a SS number before you're born, or issue you a birth certificate.

OH and when does the soul get implanted?

EDIT: I did not say anything here to offend anyone, but I'm just trying to put stuff out there to think about, it may not be popular, but there's just a point you have to draw the line.

[predaking]

Umm.. If we're for woman's choice, then what about father's choice? I would like to see more freedoms given to the father's of aborted or un-aborted fetus's.. (but that's kind of another topic all together)..

I believe it is a woman's right to decide, but then again I'm with Jadnifer, if you're all about killing an unborn fetus (and I don't believe fetus's are alive, because otherwise we'd count the conception as the start of their "birthday's" but since this isn't the case, existence to me isn't there till you're born.

Good point. Only reason I say woman's choice is in most cases (not all) I've seen, the child has been unwanted by both "parents" or a product of rape. Me personaly, I would take the child and raise it myself if I had to. For the fathers of unborn kids who would rather raise the child I give much respect as there aren't meny like that in the world and they should be entitled to the rights and freedoms you speak of , for those "fathers" who turn tail and run abortion should be an option for the mother if she so chooses.

[predaking]

My views:

Abortion: I'm for it. It's my body, not yours. If something is in there that I don't want, then I want it out. I refuse to raise a child when I cannot support myself. Why would anyone want to do that to a kid? I wouldn't have it and give it up, because that can hurt a kid even more. It's either you have it, take care of it with knowledge that you are able to take care of yourself and another life, or you don't.

I am also a huge believer on Marriage then Babbies. When you use a baby to stay together, then its just as bad as having it and not have any funds to support it. When you have a baby, and there isn't two people to be there, the that is just as bad too.

Death Penalty: I'm for it. If you can kill for either joy, hate, mental issues, money or any other form on non self defence, then you deserve to be killed for your deed. If it has the knowledge of feer, and understands what another life form is capiable of doing, then it is capiable of being killef for the wrong doing.

If someone killed your loved one, for a car, what would you think? You'd want that S.O.B dead. You want taken from that person and there family, what has happened to yours.

Now what would you feel if your loved one was able to kill that person that tried to attack them, in self defence? You'd be worried to know how they where able to do it, but praise them for doing so.

An abortion is not like killing someone in my eyes. Yes, you are killing a life form, but it doesn't know fear or pain.

very well said

[jadnifer]

Even though I'm against abortion for myself and I dont condone it, I dont judge someone for having to make such a difficult decision.

[predaking]

Even though I'm against abortion for myself and I dont condone it, I dont judge someone for having to make such a difficult decision.

Its a shame there aren't more people who are against aabortion with your attitude. I feel bad for the women who make the choice, not because of the choice but because of the crap they have to take because of it. Its bad enough to have to deal with such a difficult choice then to get browbeat for it makes it even worse.

[phee]

Its a shame there aren't more people who are against aabortion with your attitude. I feel bad for the women who make the choice, not because of the choice but because of the crap they have to take because of it. Its bad enough to have to deal with such a difficult choice then to get browbeat for it makes it even worse.

Indeed

[sass_in_the_pants]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be harsh (and I know I'll offend most of you here), but I don't see anyone having a funeral for a miscarriage. I could see maybe when it was at the age of viability (say, third trimester), but before that, I don't see it happening.

And Sas, actually the Chinese consider you 1 years old when you come out of the womb. So some of the world does believe that you've got age value before birth. Why don't we do it in the states?

The Country certainly doesn't hand you a SS number before you're born, or issue you a birth certificate.

OH and when does the soul get implanted?

EDIT: I did not say anything here to offend anyone, but I'm just trying to put stuff out there to think about, it may not be popular, but there's just a point you have to draw the line.

No, they don't have funerals. The body gets destroyed during the process. They have memorial services - they are not public events which is why you don't know about them. There are support groups for parents who are griveing the loss of their fetus and they hold candlelight vigils. You might not think their fetus was real, but their grief certainly is.

And, my babies are two months old and STILL don't have social security numbers. I wouldn't pin ANY definitions of ANYTHING on what the US government does or does not do. And of course you don't get a birth certfiicate in utero - you haven't been born. This does not mean you aren't alive.

Well, I think it's pretty clear I wouldn't know when a soul gets implanted. But I think of it like this - it's unconscionable to steal water from a thirsting man. It is equally unconscionable to steal the vessel in which he intends to pour the water. So, for me, WHEN the soul enters is not so much important as the fact that I know a soul will enter.

Again, if a fetus isn't alive, then what could I feel kicking me? I heard a heartbeat at 16 weeks - whose heartbeat was that, if there was nothing alive in me?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Um...

My ex-wife was in the later part of the second trimester when her car was hit by the other car and caused her to miscarry three days later.

She was at home... Dont tell me what I took out of the toilet was not a dead human baby. You were not in the car on the long trip to the hospital with the tupperware container next to you.

[Steven]

No, they don't have funerals. The body gets destroyed during the process. They have memorial services - they are not public events which is why you don't know about them. There are support groups for parents who are griveing the loss of their fetus and they hold candlelight vigils. You might not think their fetus was real, but their grief certainly is.

excellent points.

my wife did this by the way.....

[saechalyn]

Anyone who says a fetus is not human is lying to themselves, and I really wish those people would just change their minds and go join the other side and stop making my side look foolish. A few years ago one of our doctors who provides abortion spoke about performing abortions while being pregnant herself. Lying about what a fetus is helps no one.

[Steven]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be harsh (and I know I'll offend most of you here), but I don't see anyone having a funeral for a miscarriage. I could see maybe when it was at the age of viability (say, third trimester), but before that, I don't see it happening.

And Sas, actually the Chinese consider you 1 years old when you come out of the womb. So some of the world does believe that you've got age value before birth. Why don't we do it in the states?

The Country certainly doesn't hand you a SS number before you're born, or issue you a birth certificate.

OH and when does the soul get implanted?

EDIT: I did not say anything here to offend anyone, but I'm just trying to put stuff out there to think about, it may not be popular, but there's just a point you have to draw the line.

I see anybody greiving a loss doing it however they need to greive it Hun Hee....when you lose a "child" or a pregnancy you lose a dream, and faith and hope. You lose a great deal. For all these tattooted jewelry wearing peeps that bit of symbolism shouldent be so hard to grasp at....

as for the soul.... I beleive the soul is the mind/will/emotions....therefore a developed thing....