Life

[Der Nister]

I believe that there is life at conception. But to me, it is not viable life.

I agree with this because you have to take into account that not every conception survives.

But to each his own, I don't believe in abortion but will not tell others what to do and even though I disagree with abortion I also appose killing doctors in the name of God to save a fetis.

[Steven]

I agree with this because you have to take into account that not every conception survives.

But to each his own, I don't believe in abortion but will not tell others what to do and even though I disagree with abortion I also appose killing doctors in the name of God to save a fetis.

well, I disapprove with killing doctors as well......but I didint know we were talking about that???

[Steven]

Oh for the love of peat! you guys who think that having a baby and giving it up is so much better.. PFFT!!!!! *shakes head*

I think you spell it P-E-T-E.

anyway.....I personally know three people who had babies and gave them up after birthing them.

and I know two couples who adopted those same children.

One was a mixed race couple who had money and success but a bilogical problem that couldent let them reproduce.

the other couple had an issue where the adopting mother to be was a kidney donor recipient (my kidney) and her body would not get pregnant due to the mass amounts of anti-rejection meds she was on. They tried for several years. that couple was white - and they are actually regular joe struggling blue collar people who live in a hum drum apartment - but they wanted children.

In both cases - the quality of life for these families increased dramatically.

and both cases a decsion to give the child away was because the mother was young and without direction and purpose and didint want to fuck up her life worse than it was allready. by coincidence in both cases the birth mothers (and children) were Latino.

the third person that I know also gave up her baby to adoption was tall, blonde, hot, and very into her single life.

because of her faith she made that personal choice to give it up and not abort it. That child too, was adopted right away but I have no idea who adopted her.

its easy to make decisions without empathy when your not personally involved.

when circumstances bring these situations into your life you may find yrouself with a differing opinion that the masses opinions.

your "pfft" and head shake is duly noted Hun Hee but I dont agree with you.

[Der Nister]

well, I disapprove with killing doctors as well......but I didint know we were talking about that???

That remark wasn't aimed at you or anyone else here. But the two are related.

[hunhee]

I think you spell it P-E-T-E.

anyway.....I personally know three people who had babies and gave them up after birthing them.

and I know two couples who adopted those same children.

One was a mixed race couple who had money and success but a bilogical problem that couldent let them reproduce.

the other couple had an issue where the adopting mother to be was a kidney donor recipient (my kidney) and her body would not get pregnant due to the mass amounts of anti-rejection meds she was on. They tried for several years. that couple was white - and they are actually regular joe struggling blue collar people who live in a hum drum apartment - but they wanted children.

In both cases - the quality of life for these families increased dramatically.

and both cases a decsion to give the child away was because the mother was young and without direction and purpose and didint want to fuck up her life worse than it was allready. by coincidence in both cases the birth mothers (and children) were Latino.

the third person that I know also gave up her baby to adoption was tall, blonde, hot, and very into her single life.

because of her faith she made that personal choice to give it up and not abort it. That child too, was adopted right away but I have no idea who adopted her.

its easy to make decisions without empathy when your not personally involved.

when circumstances bring these situations into your life you may find yrouself with a differing opinion that the masses opinions.

your "pfft" and head shake is duly noted Hun Hee but I dont agree with you.

actually I love peat more than Pete. For Pete is a person, and peat is a plant. I find it funny you're the one giving me guff about how I spelled something. Can you guess I did it that way purposefully?

I'm sure you all know, because I've said it several times, but the reason why I'm frustrated is because I was adopted, but I know not all adopted kids get to be as lucky as me the second time around. BUT still, even though I was adopted into a really great family, I still get depressed, and I still have the fear of being rejected by my parents. Why you ask? because, it's one thing to be given up and not ever know that you were adopted, because it happened to you as a baby, but it's VERY different when you got to know your parents, and they still gave you up.

You always go through life questioning, did you do something wrong? Did they not like the way you looked? Did you say something wrong? Questions that will never be answered, and you're left empty and spend the rest of your life trying to figure out what's missing.

I've actually read about other kids feeling the same way, even ones given up at infancy. The most common thread "something's missing" It's hard going through life not feeling whole. .. I digress..

Great happy for all of them, glad that they all turned out OK and that the mothers feel great about their decision to not raise their babies. Good that it turned out well for all of them (the ones you know about).

But what you're missing is, it doesn't turn out that way for all babies that are given up. Not all children get adopted out OK, a lot of times they spend time in an orphanage (don't know what they call them now, I know there's a PC phrase for it). I'm not saying all foster care places are bad either, but I've heard a lot of real horror stories. A lot of them, past a certain age, stay a ward of the state till they become of age. I don't know about you, but that's sad.

I know there's a lot of well meaning people that work at these facilities, but there's just simply too many children that it's hard to take each individual one and give them the love and attention that they need.

I don't think if I took a pregnancy to term, that I could honestly give it up once I heard it cry. What gives these mother's a pass on that? I'm sure they feel guilty, but guess what? not their problem anymore. They brought a life into the world, and they have absolutely NO responsibility. I find this to be a sad.

Ugh.. enough of that.. *sighs*

[Steven]

actually I love peat more than Pete. For Pete is a person, and peat is a plant. I find it funny you're the one giving me guff about how I spelled something. Can you guess I did it that way purposefully?

I'm sure you all know, because I've said it several times, but the reason why I'm frustrated is because I was adopted, but I know not all adopted kids get to be as lucky as me the second time around. BUT still, even though I was adopted into a really great family, I still get depressed, and I still have the fear of being rejected by my parents. Why you ask? because, it's one thing to be given up and not ever know that you were adopted, because it happened to you as a baby, but it's VERY different when you got to know your parents, and they still gave you up.

You always go through life questioning, did you do something wrong? Did they not like the way you looked? Did you say something wrong? Questions that will never be answered, and you're left empty and spend the rest of your life trying to figure out what's missing.

I've actually read about other kids feeling the same way, even ones given up at infancy. The most common thread "something's missing" It's hard going through life not feeling whole. .. I digress..

Great happy for all of them, glad that they all turned out OK and that the mothers feel great about their decision to not raise their babies. Good that it turned out well for all of them (the ones you know about).

But what you're missing is, it doesn't turn out that way for all babies that are given up. Not all children get adopted out OK, a lot of times they spend time in an orphanage (don't know what they call them now, I know there's a PC phrase for it). I'm not saying all foster care places are bad either, but I've heard a lot of real horror stories. A lot of them, past a certain age, stay a ward of the state till they become of age. I don't know about you, but that's sad.

I know there's a lot of well meaning people that work at these facilities, but there's just simply too many children that it's hard to take each individual one and give them the love and attention that they need.

I don't think if I took a pregnancy to term, that I could honestly give it up once I heard it cry. What gives these mother's a pass on that? I'm sure they feel guilty, but guess what? not their problem anymore. They brought a life into the world, and they have absolutely NO responsibility. I find this to be a sad.

Ugh.. enough of that.. *sighs*

of course its stupid for me to note your spelling.

I hear you - just disagree with you.

I was never adopted - my mom split when I was three and I have virtually no memories of her while growing up, when I did try to build a relationship with her in my teens she was a fucked up wreck who ended up sleeping with one of my teenage friends and i was back out on the streets. Meanwhile Dad raised me and beat me to a pulp for 14 years.

it aint the same as your story babe but it does communicate seperation anxiety and a general lack of child to parent value and hey it fucked me up too.

on the flip side I used to go to Mexico and work at an orphanage called La Casa De la Esperanza.

it was a broke down (and I mean fucking broke - ugly broke) orphanage with all kinds of throwaways, who then get kicked to the curb (including the handicapped ones) when they turn 16 because there is no government funding for them. In terms of government funding in a third world mexican orphanage - it aint much trust me. These kids had no shoes, fucked up nasty plumbing, dirty water, dirty everything, fucked up teeth and lived out in the stix. There was a handful of us that would go to rosarita to this orphanage to work there. We'd paint, do electrical work, shovel shit, fix shit, cook, clean, play with the kids, try to teach them, hang with them, talk to them, be with them.....I learned alot there about the human spirit there...alot. You aint got no nintendo? this kid's lucky if he sees some rice and doesent get butt raped. And although Tijuana and Rosarito are places americans love to go party - those street kids out there live very dangerous lives and become both predator and prey.

as for the kids, every single one of them had it hard.

Not one of them was Emo.

Not one of them cried about their lives.

Not one of them wanted to die.

Not one of them ever blamed God or wasted time blaming their parents or society.

and not one of them had even an inkling of what we all know as americans.

but we're the ones who cant cope and devalue life and quit trying so fucking easy its disgusting.

I know all about Sad Hun Hee, been there myself as a fucked up kid, and worked with it and walked alongside and wrestled with it for many years of it as a young man.

and I'd still choose life, every single time.

[hunhee]

and I'd still choose life, every single time.

Good for you, my brother didn't.. he chose to abort at age 28.

[Destroit]

actually I love peat more than Pete. For Pete is a person, and peat is a plant. I find it funny you're the one giving me guff about how I spelled something. Can you guess I did it that way purposefully?

I'm sure you all know, because I've said it several times, but the reason why I'm frustrated is because I was adopted, but I know not all adopted kids get to be as lucky as me the second time around. BUT still, even though I was adopted into a really great family, I still get depressed, and I still have the fear of being rejected by my parents. Why you ask? because, it's one thing to be given up and not ever know that you were adopted, because it happened to you as a baby, but it's VERY different when you got to know your parents, and they still gave you up.

You always go through life questioning, did you do something wrong? Did they not like the way you looked? Did you say something wrong? Questions that will never be answered, and you're left empty and spend the rest of your life trying to figure out what's missing.

I've actually read about other kids feeling the same way, even ones given up at infancy. The most common thread "something's missing" It's hard going through life not feeling whole. .. I digress..

Great happy for all of them, glad that they all turned out OK and that the mothers feel great about their decision to not raise their babies. Good that it turned out well for all of them (the ones you know about).

But what you're missing is, it doesn't turn out that way for all babies that are given up. Not all children get adopted out OK, a lot of times they spend time in an orphanage (don't know what they call them now, I know there's a PC phrase for it). I'm not saying all foster care places are bad either, but I've heard a lot of real horror stories. A lot of them, past a certain age, stay a ward of the state till they become of age. I don't know about you, but that's sad.

I know there's a lot of well meaning people that work at these facilities, but there's just simply too many children that it's hard to take each individual one and give them the love and attention that they need.

I don't think if I took a pregnancy to term, that I could honestly give it up once I heard it cry. What gives these mother's a pass on that? I'm sure they feel guilty, but guess what? not their problem anymore. They brought a life into the world, and they have absolutely NO responsibility. I find this to be a sad.

Ugh.. enough of that.. *sighs*

That is a very touchy subject the entire adoption thing. I think it's great if for instance the parents are both dead and nobody is around to raise the children, and sometimes I think it's great because there's a good amount of people out there that should NOT be raising children (I know a few personally).

Some adopted kids turn out wonderful like you Hunhee , but even so there's a small amount that will ever feel totally normal about it.

My Aunt Jenny (second cousin technically, with 2nd cousins in our fam we just call them Aunts and Uncles if they're old enough. I'm someone's older second cousin also, but not old enough for them to call me Aunt, that and they know better I'm about 10 years too young to be Aunt anything.) was adopted by my Great Aunt Joan and Great Uncle Phil because they tried and tried to have a kid with no success. The irony in this is after they adopted Jenny my Aunt Joan ended up getting pregnant with my Uncle Mitch. She's perfectly fine about it and actually loves the fact that she was adopted so much so that she actually fostered children herself, around the time that I was 11 - 14 I think was when she fostered (she already had a biological daughter by this point, Brenna).

She was horribly in dismay about it because she wasn't adopting she was fostering children that came from very broken backgrounds and all of them were just horrible. Like that episode of South Park where Eric Cartman is on Maury all like "Yeah whatever! Whatever! I ride with 12 gangs and have sex and do drugs! I rob little old ladies for fun and kill people 'cause I do whut I wawnt!". That kind of horrible. But she got one child eventually, whose name is Chris, that also came from a horrible background (I believe his dad was in jail for killing someone and his mom was literally a crack whore, so they were obviously deemed unfit) and miraculously this boy was so wonderful despite his background that they kept him and he's been my cousin ever since.

Since there's so many shades of grey with adoption I would go with the initial: Don't get pregnant and you won't have to worry about adoption/abortion. If you REALLY can't take care of a kid and really don't want one, maybe get a vasectomy? With adopted children, since everyone is individual and has unique reactions to everything, it's hard to gauge exactly how they will turn out and how they will view their situation.

[Steven]

this is what Im constantly seeing here in these arguments:

"it might hurt, so I dont wanna do that"

nobody ever has a child in ANY manner and has a gauranty that that child will not be Michale Meyers.

and Everyfuckignbody is unloved and has hangups. Every single earthdweller. Everybody hurts, none of it is fair, everyone wants a direction, a purpose, and everyone has a void.

nothing is unique.

if you see a child with an obvious gap in his or her life you will either make a sacrifice to stand in that gap or you will say "gee, that must suck" and do nothing but form an opinion and walk away back to the saftey of yrou own little cube.

and if you ARE that wounded person you will either address that wounding and seek help and partnership and community or you will wear black, hate life, and walk away from hope and faith and again return back to your own little cube until you reproduce and teach that hopelessness to the next generation and hand them a vacant cube of their own.

again, nothing unique here at all.

to me everything boils down to what your willing to do with what you've been handed.

some people are only willing to self protect. Ok that's fine - but in the end all your left with is you.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Life, Where does it begin?

I didn't respond earlier but i do appreciate Jad separating out these topics. Just to try and help out, she did that specifically so the sub-points she brings up could be discussed in particular, rather than having the whole subject mashed all together in one run-on post. That's a hard gig to get going, but a noble effort.

Unfortunately i don't think there is a clear answer to this one as talked about in various ways above.

"Life begins" i think is a mistake in perception. Life began at the moment matter existed (some say this means life always existed) if you want to progress it back far enough (just to be a bit over the top) since every step in the way, at any point, could be considered "the beginning". Life is an analog thing, not digital. Its not necessarily "on" one moment and "off" the next, but is a progression from either from very simple non-living to living or the reverse.

We have to make (somewhat) arbitrary judgments and just say , for practical and legal reasons "ok NOW its alive". But the exact moment when something switches from being say "just organic matter" to "life" seems near impossible to get down to an exact science.

Its clear in extremes, but not so clear during the development stage.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I can refute the analog analogy.... Life is very much "on" and "off".. just ask the cat.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I can refute the analog analogy.... Life is very much "on" and "off".. just ask the cat.

If your also saying the overall idea is incorrect, it's possible. This wouldn't lead to such a controversial issues if it was cut & dry simple. (from the wording there its hard to tell if you mean the example is bad, the idea is bad, or both.. i'll assume you mean both for the purposes of the reply)

The exact moment? As soon as you try to put an exact moment on something it becomes intangible. Its only in the human mind that we have the concept of "exact". We can generalize, but truly knowing the exact moment would require a digital world, which we don't live in. "Life Starts" when? Any point you choose also has a preceding moment and a following moment, either of which might be used as starting points, and these points also have pre and post-points ad nauseum.

My point was that we just have to say "ok fuck it it starts NOW" from a practical standpoint, as there is no way to really pinpoint a specific moment, on a very small detailed level.

Digital is a human mental/mathematical construct, even electronics are not truly "digital" in the on/off way, since they are composed themselves of analog materials (like all matter based things). We just draw tolerances and call it "on" or "off" but really its a grey progression of material from one configuration to the next. In between is empty space, eventually drilled down far enough.

Life, is a process that begins when? There's no clear start point, thus the "analog" idea. Theres could be arguments about a GENERALIZED start point, but i think its pretty clear there's no easily pointed too universal law of "life starts here" from a physical standpoint.

[GothicRavenGoddess (3)]

When I was 17, I became pregnant. I told my boyfriend (who I lived with at the time) and he acted as if I told him it was raining outside. So I left. By the time that i figured out i was pregnant, it was already 1 1/2 months along. That's 1 1/2 half months of making really bad choices, of doing drugs, or being near others who were doing drugs, drinking... all that... I told my family I was pregnant, and they gave me two choices, abortion, or do it all on my own. I had no way of taking care of myself, long enough to have the baby adopted. If that were to happen, I would have had to live with the family that was going to adopt my baby. That wasn't going to happen. Where I lived at the time, 95% of the of age girls, were pregnant. And I'm not making that up, either. In the state of SC, its legal to give abortions up to the 5th month, BUT most clinics won't do it passed the 3rd month. When I was at the clinic, and while they were giving me the ultrasound, the nurse's face got all worried, and a funny and I asked her what was wrong, and she quickly turned the monitor away, so i couldn't see, and said, "nothing, nothing." they don't have a policy against the girls seeing the ultra sound... as a matter of fact, one of them got a print out of the ultra sound. Made me worry, and I was a little upset. No one would tell me what was going on. I had my abortion at 10 weeks and 1 day. Something that i regret, every day of my life I could already feel my baby, growing inside me. (something I was told was impossible, until the ultrasound. the nurse asked me if i felt it move, and i said yes... sure as shit, it nudged against the back wall of my uterus) anyways. the way things are going, and not because of the abortion, I may not be able to have kids. I have to live with losing what could have been my first child. I don't know. I hated myself, for a REALLY long time. I was against it, but because at 17, you don't have FULL control of your life, I had no choice. i get really depressed during July, and February... I am 22 years old, and it still haunts me, to this day. I will NEVER forget what happened. I am pro-choice, but i am also pro-life. You can't judge people for the decisions they make, because you never know what the motivation was behind that decision. Like me, i could have fought it, but then i would have been raising a baby on the street. I had no job, no car, and the baby's daddy didn't care, either way, what my decision was. To this day, my mother has a hard time wrapping her head around the fact that my grandmother put her foot down, told my family that this is what is going to happen, and that they had to help out. So, that's what happened. I am not happy with it, but i know it was for the best. And before you go off and say, well, you should have been on birth control, and/or he should have been wearing a condom... uhm... i WAS on birth control, and he WAS wearing a condom.. the damn thing came off... that was SO embarrassing ....ANYWAYS....

Yeah. so you can hate me, or whatever. Just know that I have had to live with this, and will continue to live with this, with hurt, and pain, and a broken heart. I am not proud of it... part of me hates myself for it..... I think that I have been through enough. Something that I will never ever be able to forgive myself for.So, that's my story... take it how you want...

[Steven]

When I was 17, I became pregnant. I told my boyfriend (who I lived with at the time) and he acted as if I told him it was raining outside. So I left. By the time that i figured out i was pregnant, it was already 1 1/2 months along. That's 1 1/2 half months of making really bad choices, of doing drugs, or being near others who were doing drugs, drinking... all that... I told my family I was pregnant, and they gave me two choices, abortion, or do it all on my own. I had no way of taking care of myself, long enough to have the baby adopted. If that were to happen, I would have had to live with the family that was going to adopt my baby. That wasn't going to happen. Where I lived at the time, 95% of the of age girls, were pregnant. And I'm not making that up, either. In the state of SC, its legal to give abortions up to the 5th month, BUT most clinics won't do it passed the 3rd month. When I was at the clinic, and while they were giving me the ultrasound, the nurse's face got all worried, and a funny and I asked her what was wrong, and she quickly turned the monitor away, so i couldn't see, and said, "nothing, nothing." they don't have a policy against the girls seeing the ultra sound... as a matter of fact, one of them got a print out of the ultra sound. Made me worry, and I was a little upset. No one would tell me what was going on. I had my abortion at 10 weeks and 1 day. Something that i regret, every day of my life I could already feel my baby, growing inside me. (something I was told was impossible, until the ultrasound. the nurse asked me if i felt it move, and i said yes... sure as shit, it nudged against the back wall of my uterus) anyways. the way things are going, and not because of the abortion, I may not be able to have kids. I have to live with losing what could have been my first child. I don't know. I hated myself, for a REALLY long time. I was against it, but because at 17, you don't have FULL control of your life, I had no choice. i get really depressed during July, and February... I am 22 years old, and it still haunts me, to this day. I will NEVER forget what happened. I am pro-choice, but i am also pro-life. You can't judge people for the decisions they make, because you never know what the motivation was behind that decision. Like me, i could have fought it, but then i would have been raising a baby on the street. I had no job, no car, and the baby's daddy didn't care, either way, what my decision was. To this day, my mother has a hard time wrapping her head around the fact that my grandmother put her foot down, told my family that this is what is going to happen, and that they had to help out. So, that's what happened. I am not happy with it, but i know it was for the best. And before you go off and say, well, you should have been on birth control, and/or he should have been wearing a condom... uhm... i WAS on birth control, and he WAS wearing a condom.. the damn thing came off... that was SO embarrassing ....ANYWAYS....

Yeah. so you can hate me, or whatever. Just know that I have had to live with this, and will continue to live with this, with hurt, and pain, and a broken heart. I am not proud of it... part of me hates myself for it..... I think that I have been through enough. Something that I will never ever be able to forgive myself for.So, that's my story... take it how you want...

I admire you for the courage to post this so transparantly....and honestly I thank you for sharing this.

[LostAngel47]

Please delete this.... GothicRavenGoddess Accedentally posted under my name... LOL

[phee]

I am so confused....

[GothicRavenGoddess (3)]

Okay, I fixed it... here:

I admire you for the courage to post this so transparently....and honestly I thank you for sharing this.

What do you mean "transparently"?

you're welcome, by the way

I just felt it important to give a first hand account/feeling from someone who has actually gone through it.

Like I said, it haunts me, I'm not proud of it, but in my situation, it was necessary. It still breaks my heart, and that was several years ago, now. so yeah...

I think that, now, unless my life is in danger, I'd never do it again. I'm a little older, and in a situation where even if i opted to give the baby up for adoption, I'd be able to. But like i said before, I don't think that I can have children, so the subject is very touch an go. I can talk about painful things, without breaking down, because I have the hope that i can help someone else... inform them, or help them go through their pain or other emotions.... its tough on some ppl....

anyways....

My god-mom was still logged in, and I made the post uinder her name, instead of mine.... all is right, again...

[jadnifer]

I think what Steven meant by transparently...correct me if Im wrong..meant that you were so candid and open about your experience and let us know first hand from a woman that has actually gone through what we are specifically talking about.

[predaking]

now this may sound a little strange but hear me out first,

I see life as a form of energy, its always there no "on" or "off" just there. When conception starts a sort of container for this energy is being formed, at some some time during the development the container is able to take on this "energy'... a life starts. Now energy can not be created nor distroyed so in terms of life it fills the container (fetus), it changes and matures (baby to adult), when the container has worn out the energy leaves (elder to death), then the prosses starts again. Now, there is only so much energy to go around so when ever a new container if formed an old one must go (connection between birth and death). This last bit was made clear (at least to me) when my cousin passed, she was the only one that died that day in the hospitol and on that same day at the same place there was only one bitrh. This would explain people experenceing past lives, all the things you were/did become part of that energy when it transfers.

[jadnifer]

now this may sound a little strange but hear me out first,

I see life as a form of energy, its always there no "on" or "off" just there. When conception starts a sort of container for this energy is being formed, at some some time during the development the container is able to take on this "energy'... a life starts. Now energy can not be created nor distroyed so in terms of life it fills the container (fetus), it changes and matures (baby to adult), when the container has worn out the energy leaves (elder to death), then the prosses starts again. Now, there is only so much energy to go around so when ever a new container if formed and old one must go (connection between birth and death). This last bit was made clear (at least to me) when my cousin passed, she was the only one that died that day in the hospitol and on that same day at the same place there was only one bitrh. This would explain people experenceing past lives, all the things you were/did become part of that energy when it transfers.

That is actually a VERY interesting view on the whole subject!

[predaking]

That is actually a VERY interesting view on the whole subject!

thank you

[Steven]

I think what Steven meant by transparently...correct me if Im wrong..meant that you were so candid and open about your experience and let us know first hand from a woman that has actually gone through what we are specifically talking about.

that's exactly what I meant.

I respect transparancy, admire it, see power in it, courage too.

Very few people really open up that way, and I wanted to say thank you - because despite her pain and struggles there will be nay sayers and those who want to reduce her experience to less than it was in order to fit more comfortably within their own value system, and she did it anyway, which I thought was pretty cool.

but she walked it first hand. I always tend to lean toward those who have been there, versus those who are simply passionate.

[jadnifer]

that's exactly what I meant.

I respect transparancy, admire it, see power in it, courage too.

Very few people really open up that way, and I wanted to say thank you - because despite her pain and struggles there will be nay sayers and those who want to reduce her experience to less than it was in order to fit more comfortably within their own value system, and she did it anyway, which I thought was pretty cool.

but she walked it first hand. I always tend to lean toward those who have been there, versus those who are simply passionate.

I am friends with GRG. I had a lot of respect for her before and I now have more that she can be that open and honest with what she experienced.

Thank you for that hun!

[JaneDead]

To me, this relates to abortion, so here's what I think.

I believe that there is life at conception. But to me, it is not viable life. And for me, the major point at issue where abortion is concerned is when pain can be felt.

I know this is uber-simplifying things. But to me, so long as the "thing conceived" cannot yet feel pain, it isn't functioning on a level that makes it something that HAS to be brought to full term.

This is really stating how I feel on the subject in a very badly expressed way.

i agree.

which is why i am not for or against abortion. i know a girl who had one at 6 or 7 MONTHS. (didn't even know they could or would do one that LATE in a pregnancy) sick if you ask me. :( but i am not against one in the beginning stages.