Charles Barkley Calls Conservatives "fake Christians"

[phee]

an interesting scripture to ponder where Jesus himself is teaching and he talks about that which is fake and futile in terms of Godliness or righteousness in Matthew 7:21-23....

"21 Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will go into the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the pleasure of my Father in heaven. 22 A great number will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, were we not prophets in your name, and did we not by your name send out evil spirits, and by your name do works of power? 23 And then will I say to them, I never knew you: go from me, you workers of evil.

That is one translation yes.

[torn asunder]

Judaism is not a "Missionary Religion" They do not have any goal to make the rest of the earth Jewish, much like Hindus don't really care to convert others to Hinduism.

Judaism runs through family and by marraige (specifically the womans side of the family).

They believe in essance that they are the "choosen ones" they don't really want to make other people "choosen"... it is not a necessary part of "salvation"

My knowledge though is limited... I know that one of the Jewish DGN members will have more details.

thanks, phee - that's pretty interesting. i do remember something about the twelve tribes of isreal - is that related?

[phee]

thanks, phee - that's pretty interesting. i do remember something about the twelve tribes of isreal - is that related?

That goes a bit into kabala and Jewish mysticism.... not too familiar with that.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.

are the other two...

pretty negative in all of them.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

That goes a bit into kabala and Jewish mysticism.... not too familiar with that.

and the new Testament. Revelations to be exact. That part about the end of the world... and the new Kingdom of God that is created here on earth... and that ONLY Jewish people get to live in it... 60,000 or them if memory serves... everyone else goes to Oblivion.

(I challenge anyone to point out where the Bibles says ANYONE goes to Heaven or Hell)

[phee]

are the other two...

pretty negative in all of them.

I would have to agree... but really the original words.... they have been translated at least 20 times throughout the millenia, starting with Aremaic... and then Greek.... then Latin...etc.... who knows what was actually said...

[phee]

and the new Testament. Revelations to be exact. That part about the end of the world... and the new Kingdom of God that is created here on earth... and that ONLY Jewish people get to live in it... 60,000 or them if memory serves... everyone else goes to Oblivion.

(I challenge anyone to point out where the Bibles says ANYONE goes to Heaven or Hell)

that is correct... it doesn't... at least the versions I have read.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Did you know there is no word for Soul in ancient Arabic? The peoples of Biblical times... did not have a concept for soul.. that was added to the Bible when it was translated to Greek.

[phee]

Did you know there is no word for Soul in ancient Arabic? The peoples of Biblical times... did not have a concept for soul.. that was added to the Bible when it was translated to Greek.

That is VERY interesting....

This is a perfect example of what I mean by the translations...

I had not heard of that one specifically.... cool

[Msterbeau]

That is VERY interesting....

This is a perfect example of what I mean by the translations...

I had not heard of that one specifically.... cool

Which is why I wonder how anyone can take any of the literal translations seriously? People read the English words but do they really capture the original meaning or intent?

To me, if you wanted to be a "good Christian" you would be doing your best to follow the example of Christ.. period. Even if the stories of Christ are just that, they still provide, in my opinion, a good guidepost for decent behavior.

[Steven]

that is correct... it doesn't... at least the versions I have read.

that is incorrect.

144,000.

divided from the original 12 tribes of Israel

set aside as annointed - this passage does not say in any way that the remaining and the gentiles will be cast into oblvion.

[Steven]

That is one translation yes.

the translational "differences" your hinting at here are moot.

the point of the text is quite simple and direct.

lets not lose focus.

thats like saying:

Hey - you are a big fat:

dickhead

asshole

jerkoff

all are negative connotations - do the translations of the negative term used REALLY change the context?

[Steven]

are the other two...

pretty negative in all of them.

ah....somebody gets the point.

I find it interesting that a biblical passage regarding sinceriity and legalism so quickly got lost in translational musings when the translational differences in no way change the context.

[Steven]

Did you know there is no word for Soul in ancient Arabic? The peoples of Biblical times... did not have a concept for soul.. that was added to the Bible when it was translated to Greek.

actually you can take it a bit farther..."souls" are also terms used to simply describe "lives" and or "Men"...even animals are described as "souls"

like english - there are context differences in how certain words are used in light of the topic of discussion. We do it everyday. Christ himself talked about the destruction fo the soul.

But not alot of topical information in biblically available - personally I think that in general the mind/will/emotions are exemplified biblically as the soul. Its not a critical aspect of the beleif system.

[Steven]

Which is why I wonder how anyone can take any of the literal translations seriously? People read the English words but do they really capture the original meaning or intent?

To me, if you wanted to be a "good Christian" you would be doing your best to follow the example of Christ.. period. Even if the stories of Christ are just that, they still provide, in my opinion, a good guidepost for decent behavior.

I can (take them seriously).

english i a great example because its an extremely colorful and descriptive language as opposed to say....japanese which is much more general and vague. In fact it is so vague that Japanese corporations hire American linguists to bridge the gap between cultures in advertissing, because the Japanese mind sometimes has difficulty grasping how to appeal to the American mind with all of its passions.

yet here's the thing...in Japan nopbody's confused among one another - they understand all of the nuances being left undefined by their language. They understand based on more than just the language at use, but because of social levels, surrounding events and environements, etc....

this is why I beleive its important to consider social trends in biblical times, the people being addressed and by whom, and a general pursuit of context beyond the printed black and white. To me its not a stretch, its just a basic study of literature.

[Steven]

I would have to agree... but really the original words.... they have been translated at least 20 times throughout the millenia, starting with Aremaic... and then Greek.... then Latin...etc.... who knows what was actually said...

over 5000 remnants of anciet copies of scripture have been dug up over the centuries Phee, along with all kinds of other historical and ancietn writings of various sorts.

in the cannonized portions that have been studied in comparison with that which has been discovered- you dont have tranlastional deviations. The same God, the same Messiah, the same Patriarchs, the same need for mediation, the same sinful state of man, the same provision for restoration, the same historical accounts, the same poems, songs, etc. etc. etc.

5000 remnanats of varying ages and timelines and culttures and translations.....that should give you some sort of insight into what was actually said - since the consistencies of actual artifacts are so strong.

you have less than 10 copied manuscripts ever dug up on the teachings of Plato.

nobody's doubting their integrity.

[Msterbeau]

I can (take them seriously).

english i a great example because its an extremely colorful and descriptive language as opposed to say....japanese which is much more general and vague. In fact it is so vague that Japanese corporations hire American linguists to bridge the gap between cultures in advertissing, because the Japanese mind sometimes has difficulty grasping how to appeal to the American mind with all of its passions.

yet here's the thing...in Japan nopbody's confused among one another - they understand all of the nuances being left undefined by their language. They understand based on more than just the language at use, but because of social levels, surrounding events and environements, etc....

this is why I beleive its important to consider social trends in biblical times, the people being addressed and by whom, and a general pursuit of context beyond the printed black and white. To me its not a stretch, its just a basic study of literature.

Trust me. I know VERY well about the Japanese translation thing. I deal with it every day.

[phee]

5000 remnanats of varying ages and timelines and culttures and translations.....that should give you some sort of insight into what was actually said - since the consistencies of actual artifacts are so strong.

Some sort of insight... yes.... I would agree with how vague that is.

[Steven]

Some sort of insight... yes.... I would agree with how vague that is.

which leads us all back to square one on how we tend to process any form of "evidence" or "truth" based on our personal values....

I see it as overwhelming consistency and would argue that if it were not a subject of spirtual absolutes, this sort of archeological support would please a great many people.

but you see it as vague.

I think were both choosing to see what we need to see.

[Destroit]

and the new Testament. Revelations to be exact. That part about the end of the world... and the new Kingdom of God that is created here on earth... and that ONLY Jewish people get to live in it... 60,000 or them if memory serves... everyone else goes to Oblivion.

(I challenge anyone to point out where the Bibles says ANYONE goes to Heaven or Hell)

So...there is no heaven and nobody gets in? Doesn't that make everyone a fake Christian and totally render Christ obsolete?

That's rather unsettling. Why is there Christianity if only Jewish people get in?

Ehhhgh...all the talk about the afterlife always gets me nervous. That's one reason I don't want children, it's not fair. Not fair at all. Bringing beings who are conscious and in my eyes precious into the world when there's a chance they'll be blinked into oblivion upon death. Personally, had I had an option and known that I wished I would never have been born myself...but sadly we don't get that choice. At least I don't have to be responsible for feeding into this horrible cycle...

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I didn't say heaven didn't exist. I said we don't go there. The Bible says that when we die we go to our graves. That we rest. Until the second coming.. then everyone is risen and thier bodys restored. Then we are judged. Those found lacking, cease to exist. Those found to be worthy get to live in the new Kingdom of God that Jesus creates here on Earth that will last for 1000 years... then the Bible gets kinda vague as to what happens after that 1000 years.

[phee]

that is incorrect.

144,000.

divided from the original 12 tribes of Israel

set aside as annointed - this passage does not say in any way that the remaining and the gentiles will be cast into oblvion.

I still don't see hell.... I see oblivion.... those are different things.

[Steven]

So...there is no heaven and nobody gets in? Doesn't that make everyone a fake Christian and totally render Christ obsolete?

That's rather unsettling. Why is there Christianity if only Jewish people get in?

Ehhhgh...all the talk about the afterlife always gets me nervous. That's one reason I don't want children, it's not fair. Not fair at all. Bringing beings who are conscious and in my eyes precious into the world when there's a chance they'll be blinked into oblivion upon death. Personally, had I had an option and known that I wished I would never have been born myself...but sadly we don't get that choice. At least I don't have to be responsible for feeding into this horrible cycle...

is that really whats biblical?

if so then youd better take out pretty much all of the new testament and anything concerning the Apostle Paul who was sent to the Gentiles specifically.

and then youd better go back into Old Testament text and omit or edit out any text that shows how pagans and gentiles were allowed to be grafted into the Israelite camp

and then you'd better omit Jesus charge to his disciples to preach to all nations and tougues - even Mexican Americans from Hollywood by way of Garden City.

yes it does make everyone fake and Christ obsolete if its just like whats being insinuated here.

PS - nothing in life has ever been fair.

thats a man made ideology, it has nothing to do with reality, never has.

ah but potential....now there's something to consider Chernobyl. Your such a giver upper, and I wish you were not, because i dig on you.

[Steven]

I still don't see hell.... I see oblivion.... those are different things.

semantics my phee friend.

lets use either approach, hell or oblivion, whatever - or - lets suppliment it with suffering and or eternal seperation from God or whatever else you want to use that your comfy with right now.

one speaks of blessing and cognizance with spirtual fullfillment.

The other speaks of the void.

but you were talking about that number right....?

I corrected you with 144000.....

so tell me what do you see specifically from that passage of scripture?

whats being described, discussed, suggested, addressed ect? and to whom? for what purpose?

these things are all a part of what you do or do not see.....

[phee]

Not the number... specifically your statement you had in quotations...

I don't have my bible handy at the moment.

To me specifically... Hell, Oblivian, or Whatever.... those are very different things. You are basing this on an assumption that suffering and eternal separation from God, that there is a God to begin with, and that you know what the existance of said being entails. But you cannot argue a point unless everyone agrees on some fundamentals...

For example... eternal suffering=oblivion.... I was in the oblivion for an infinity of time before I was born and I didn't seem to mind... why would eternity of it again bug me?