Charles Barkley Calls Conservatives "fake Christians"

[boshy]

I would like to point out that the Arch Bishop of Canterbury agrees with me about the whole concept. It's not a language problem, it's a misconception problem. There is no place in the Bible thats says the humans go to Heaven or Hell when we die. Never has, in any laungage.

The Aremiac word used to describe what happens to those who are judged unworthy translates to "nothingness". Oblivian. Not hell.

Hell, the pit or any one of many names given it is where Satan fell when he was tossed out of heaven. The Bible, never once, says we go there.

Don't have a bible handy but didn't Christ say to one of the three on the cross before he died that "tonight you will be with me in paradise"? or some similar translation? i think this qualifies as a refernce to heaven also my "fathers' mansion has many rooms" and christians aren't suposed to strong arm people into christianity but spread the gospel - literal translation "good news" - that the lamb of God had been sacrificed to atone for the sins of man (no more animal sacrifices are necessary) and every one gets into heaven no matter what. you don't have to belong to a church or even do good works to go. just believe. sorta like tapping you heels 3 times and saying "there's no place like home"

[Steven]

Even the best Christians screw up...say the wrong thing, have bad days. It happens.

NEVER!!! NEVER!!! I SPEAK ONLY AS THE SPIRIT COMPELLS ME!!!!! (I jest)

[Steven]

Don't have a bible handy but didn't Christ say to one of the three on the cross before he died that "tonight you will be with me in paradise"? or some similar translation? i think this qualifies as a refernce to heaven also my "fathers' mansion has many rooms" and christians aren't suposed to strong arm people into christianity but spread the gospel - literal translation "good news" - that the lamb of God had been sacrificed to atone for the sins of man (no more animal sacrifices are necessary) and every one gets into heaven no matter what. you don't have to belong to a church or even do good works to go. just believe. sorta like tapping you heels 3 times and saying "there's no place like home"

now that right there......was a dang good post Boshy.

yes, yes, and sorta yes.

this is why I dont understand the process of borrowing a "bit" of Christianity in conjunction iwht other faiths, because Christianity's (stemming from the person of Jesus) entire platform is built on this:

"you cant do it on your own - you neeed ME, and ONLY me (Jesus) to get there. I'm the door....open up please".

and thats why people hate it.

which, I get. i get that.

the exclusivity of the faith causes division.

personally, I think all truth causes division - but this one seems to be a favorite hateful delicacy.

[phee]

As for republicans specifically, I cannot imagine who such a strict pacifist philosophy of "turning the other cheek" would allow for the Iraq war, or any war, in general. I am not speaking against war one way or another, but if you are a Christian aren't your hands tied on the matter?

I find it hard to believe that a majority of Christians would turn the cheek when struck. Christianity doesn't even seems to prevent "Cathy and the girls" from cutting people off on the highway en route to the Country Kitchen Breakfast Buffet after church.

If you were in a relationship and your significant other told you that they loved you, yet did absolutely nothing out of the way to show it, neither did they make you feel that love nor be even considerate to you.... wouldn't you doubt that love? Yet if you express your doubts to them about that love and they return with "the love I feel is deep and personal, don't judge the way I love you!" Would you still have doubts about that? Would you be satisfied?

The reason why I claim that most Christians are fake Chrisitians is that Christ has set the standard so high for human behavior and this standard is so incompatible with the American lifestyle that few could even be considred in making an honest attempt. It is a tenant of faith that people are sinners and could never be quite like Christ, but ought they to at least try to sometime? If not to succeed then at least to fail as little as possible.

This reminds me of a quote by Abrose Bierce...

"Christian: One who believes in the teachings of Christ as they apply to their neighbor."

[Steven]

As for republicans specifically, I cannot imagine who such a strict pacifist philosophy of "turning the other cheek" would allow for the Iraq war, or any war, in general. I am not speaking against war one way or another, but if you are a Christian aren't your hands tied on the matter?

I find it hard to believe that a majority of Christians would turn the cheek when struck. Christianity doesn't even seems to prevent "Cathy and the girls" from cutting people off on the highway en route to the Country Kitchen Breakfast Buffet after church. Let alone surrendering the closer parking space to another even when the lot is nearly full.

If you were in a relationship and your significant other told you that they loved you, yet did absolutely nothing out of the way to show it, neither did they make you feel that love nor be even considerate to you.... wouldn't you doubt that love? Yet if you express your doubts to them about that love and they return with "the love I feel is deep and personal, don't judge the way I love you!" Would you still have doubts about that? Would you be satisfied?

The reason why I claim that most Christians are fake Chrisitians is that Christ has set the standard so high for human behavior and this standard is so incompatible with the American lifestyle that few could even be considred in making an honest attempt. It is a tenant of faith that people are sinners and could never be quite like Christ, but ought they to at least try to sometime? If not to succeed then at least to fail as little as possible.

ok, let's explore that theory a little bit then….

in terms of turning the other cheek, is this the same Jesus who told the Roman soldiers to be satisfied with their wages? Why did he not instead tell them to lay down their arms? Is this the same Jesus that in a fit of rage overturned the money tables in the temple, and made a whip and drove out the sellers, and their oxen and other animals being sold for sacrifice? Is this the same Jesus who stopped a mob from stoning a women caught boofing somebody other than her husband by writing their own sins out on the ground?

is there a contradiction at work here?

how about when Peter drew his sword and cut off Malchus ear in the Garden when they came to take Chrsit to the Romans?

what did Jesus tell him? "Put away your sword - those who live by it die by it…."

which begs to question….Peter hung with Jesus for years. Was this the first time he ever strapped on on? I doubt it.

And how about Judas Iscariot - "Iscariot" is a title known for being a resistor - to Roman Authority, a rebel rouser of sorts.

I see people "turn the other cheek" in this place, here in DGN, whens sometimes the fight is just not worth it, or conceeding a point

is good for the whole. Anybody whos married should know all about turning the other cheek.

Anybody in a leadership position at all should know about turnign the other cheek.

And did he apply that principle to authority figures such as police and soldiers when he taught it? No. He was talking about

daily interaction between regular people….you and I. And he was adressing regular people when he taught it.

and what other standards did he teach and exemplify? (since were talkgin about unreachable standards here)

Strength. Authoritive teaching and leadership. Compassion. Healing. Accountability. The ability to listen and articulate effectively

to all walks of people. Faith. Passion. Honor. Nobility. Honoring your word. Charitable actions.

intimacy with God. Revolution of the mind and will. Knowing your calling. Courage of conviction.

those things are beyond our reach?

[TomCat]

Wow, you guys are getting "deep" on me here...btw, I wouldn't get really whipped up about anything that Charles Barkley says...

[Steven]

This reminds me of a quote by Abrose Bierce...

"Christian: One who believes in the teachings of Christ as they apply to their neighbor."

Abrose Bierce doesent speak for us all, especially me.

[phee]

Abrose Bierce doesent speak for us all, especially me.

heh... who said he did?

[Steven]

and yet you let him speak for you....

[phee]

and yet you let him speak for you....

If you re-read the original.... I said that st_masey's statement reminds me of the quote.... please read before making this assumption

kthx

[Steven]

for St Masy...

As for republicans specifically, I cannot imagine who such a strict pacifist philosophy of "turning the other cheek" would allow for the Iraq war, or any war, in general. I am not speaking against war one way or another, but if you are a Christian aren't your hands tied on the matter?

this idea is dependent upon your beleiving that "turn the other cheek" is a strict pacifist philosophy.

I dont.

And Christ did not invent or build a platform of pacifism either - its an oh so common (and trite) go to argument that lots of people like to use, but in truth it really does not apply. At least i dont (and millions of others) beleive so.

I find it hard to believe that a majority of Christians would turn the cheek when struck. Christianity doesn't even seems to prevent "Cathy and the girls" from cutting people off on the highway en route to the Country Kitchen Breakfast Buffet after church. Let alone surrendering the closer parking space to another even when the lot is nearly full.

If you strike me I'll beat your ass. If you strike my woman Ill put you in the hospital. I'll let God sort it out in the end.

I know christians who have surrendered time, money, food, clothing, personal saftey, resources, careers, and MUCH comfort for countless others. Just because you dont know them does not mean they dont exist.

If you were in a relationship and your significant other told you that they loved you, yet did absolutely nothing out of the way to show it, neither did they make you feel that love nor be even considerate to you.... wouldn't you doubt that love? Yet if you express your doubts to them about that love and they return with "the love I feel is deep and personal, don't judge the way I love you!" Would you still have doubts about that? Would you be satisfied?

If my significant other only paid me lip service I would be gone - your setting up a scenario that is dependent on zero self esteem and healthy limits. I dont have those sort of relationships. I dont make those sorts of choices. I test EVERYTHING I profess - up close and intimate - not from a distance in observation. I dont know your story so I cant comment on it - but in terms of showing love via a relationship with God, I have not only witnessed it but have been deeply ensconsed in it for many years. I am satisfied because I have tested the limits of that which I follow. Your questions are entirely reasonable....only they dont apply.

The reason why I claim that most Christians are fake Chrisitians is that Christ has set the standard so high for human behavior and this standard is so incompatible with the American lifestyle that few could even be considred in making an honest attempt. It is a tenant of faith that people are sinners and could never be quite like Christ, but ought they to at least try to sometime? If not to succeed then at least to fail as little as possible.

what would you like to know?

what shall I tell you about this quest to be christlike?

[Steven]

If you re-read the original.... I said that st_masey's statement reminds me of the quote.... please read before making this assumption

kthx

did you really just kthx me?

I'll note the step backward from the quote, albeit puzzled because for a moment there it sounded deliscious to the Phee..

[phee]

did you really just kthx me?

I'll note the step backward from the quote, albeit puzzled because for a moment there it sounded deliscious to the Phee..

LOL.... I have no idea what that means....

[Steven]

LOL.... I have no idea what that means....

first - I cant spell delicious

2nd - I meant that although it was not directly linked to you it felt like you dug on it so you went with it like a tastey morsal.

[phee]

first - I cant spell delicious

2nd - I meant that although it was not directly linked to you it felt like you dug on it so you went with it like a tastey morsal.

Nope not that time...

Just brought it to mind... if you ever want to read one of the most cynical and sarcastic books ever.... I recommend "The Devils Dictionary" by Ambrose Beirce... written in the late 1800's... an interesting read.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Wow, you guys are getting "deep" on me here...btw, I wouldn't get really whipped up about anything that Charles Barkley says...

Theres just a small crew on the board as soon as you say "religion" "god" "democrats" "republicans" or a few other key words anywhere in post, regardless of what the original intent of the post was, that get whipped up. If it happens to be some random jackass that says the words, isnt particularly relevant, the underlying ideas that it brings up is the issue.

The idea of a "fake" christian is a difficult one since at any point the idea of belief without fully demonstrable evidence (unshakable faith) can be pulled out, and that often makes further discussion of an issue impossible in a sense. So i could just say its my "true faith" that defines my personal version of what "real"Christianity is. It basically could be a totally unassailable position since i have some sort of supernatural revelation that is not subject to scientific principals or any other empirical or logical discussion. I cant be "fake" since i have full faith that my version of what is right is true and not possible to be changed. No further progress is possible since i have the absolute truth via my process of non-thinking, non-demonstrable evidence, thus since its only in my mind or "soul" that this can be demonstrated, its an impregnable position from the believers standpoint.

This same argument could be used to prove (to myself) that due to me feeling its "true in my heart" my faith tells me that magic faeries live at the bottom of the lake, because i saw them once (or maybe i just "Feel" its true) and you have nothing to say about it since its my faith and how dare you question my faith. Its not possible that I'm wrong and i refuse to entertain the idea.

[Steven]

Nope not that time...

Just brought it to mind... if you ever want to read one of the most cynical and sarcastic books ever.... I recommend "The Devils Dictionary" by Ambrose Beirce... written in the late 1800's... an interesting read.

that actually sounds like a good read, thanks Pheester

[Steven]

Theres just a small crew on the board as soon as you say "religion" "god" "democrats" "republicans" or a few other key words anywhere in post, regardless of what the original intent of the post was, that get whipped up. If it happens to be some random jackass that says the words, isnt particularly relevant, the underlying ideas that it brings up is the issue.

The idea of a "fake" christian is a difficult one since at any point the idea of belief without fully demonstrable evidence (unshakable faith) can be pulled out, and that often makes further discussion of an issue impossible in a sense. So i could just say its my "true faith" that defines my personal version of what "real"Christianity is. It basically could be a totally unassailable position since i have some sort of supernatural revelation that is not subject to scientific principals or any other empirical or logical discussion. I cant be "fake" since i have full faith that my version of what is right is true and not possible to be changed. No further progress is possible since i have the absolute truth via my process of non-thinking, non-demonstrable evidence, thus since its only in my mind or "soul" that this can be demonstrated, its an impregnable position from the believers standpoint.

This same argument could be used to prove (to myself) that due to me feeling its "true in my heart" my faith tells me that magic faeries live at the bottom of the lake, because i saw them once (or maybe i just "Feel" its true) and you have nothing to say about it since its my faith and how dare you question my faith. Its not possible that I'm wrong and i refuse to entertain the idea.

Si Mon.

But I'd rather just color and illustrate certain ideas or points of consideration than try to "prove" anything because proof is so polarizing.

[phee]

that actually sounds like a good read, thanks Pheester

Cool... do not take it as anything other then comedy... because that is all it is.

[Steven]

Cool... do not take it as anything other then comedy... because that is all it is.

well.....so is a good half of my passionate crap.

[TomCat]

Theres just a small crew on the board as soon as you say "religion" "god" "democrats" "republicans" or a few other key words anywhere in post, regardless of what the original intent of the post was, that get whipped up. If it happens to be some random jackass that says the words, isnt particularly relevant, the underlying ideas that it brings up is the issue.

The idea of a "fake" christian is a difficult one since at any point the idea of belief without fully demonstrable evidence (unshakable faith) can be pulled out, and that often makes further discussion of an issue impossible in a sense. So i could just say its my "true faith" that defines my personal version of what "real"Christianity is. It basically could be a totally unassailable position since i have some sort of supernatural revelation that is not subject to scientific principals or any other empirical or logical discussion. I cant be "fake" since i have full faith that my version of what is right is true and not possible to be changed. No further progress is possible since i have the absolute truth via my process of non-thinking, non-demonstrable evidence, thus since its only in my mind or "soul" that this can be demonstrated, its an impregnable position from the believers standpoint.

This same argument could be used to prove (to myself) that due to me feeling its "true in my heart" my faith tells me that magic faeries live at the bottom of the lake, because i saw them once (or maybe i just "Feel" its true) and you have nothing to say about it since its my faith and how dare you question my faith. Its not possible that I'm wrong and i refuse to entertain the idea.

OK, I was just stopping by for a beer and a lil' "gentle political probing." *Runs and hides*

[Steven]

hey dont you got some boxes to pack mister???

[TomCat]

hey dont you got some boxes to pack mister???

soon as i get home from work.

[jadnifer]

the problem with taking a littel bit of every religion in a combined effort is that some of those religions are indeed seperatist.

mine is. totally.

to take a peice of it when it is designed to be exclusive seems like a failed effort to me.

but thats just me.

I see where you are coming from, Steven. The fact is, I'm not like taking bits and pieces from Christian religion and the Muslim religion and the Jewish religion and so on and so forth.

It's different things from the Christian religions. For example: I find it hard to accept what the Catholics believe to be called purgatory. I would not feel right joining a Catholic church and then turning around and telling them that I dont believe in purgatory. Does that better explain it for you?

Maybe I should have phrased it better.

That is why I tend to attend non-denominational churches.

[Steven]

I see where you are coming from, Steven. The fact is, I'm not like taking bits and pieces from Christian religion and the Muslim religion and the Jewish religion and so on and so forth.

It's different things from the Christian religions. For example: I find it hard to accept what the Catholics believe to be called purgatory. I would not feel right joining a Catholic church and then turning around and telling them that I dont believe in purgatory. Does that better explain it for you?

Maybe I should have phrased it better.

That is why I tend to attend non-denominational churches.

actually babe I was addressing Mike's (Torn Asunders) suggestion.....