Prostitution

[Destroit]

I'd like to point out that Prostitution has not always been illegal in the world. In fact, during the middle ages it was pretty much legal everywhere. "The Church" even recognized the need for it to exist. So, various things were setup to control it and make it safe for the workers. There were even state run whore houses. Hell, read enough history books and you find out what the word courtesan really means.

Non of the various legal prostitution setups has gotten rid of the problems that come with it... slavery, violence, drug abuse and decease.

Lets look at a modern country with legal prostitution. Germany. It's completely legal there. You know what? Germany has a huge problem with women being brought in from other countries to be sex slaves.

How about the Netherlands... they have the laws that most resemble what you guys want. Prostitutes can form unions, pay taxes and get all the benfits that any other profession gets... The Netherlands has a HUGE problem with women being abducted in other countries and forced into prostitution there. Nubmers vary.. but between 1000 and 7000 women and girls are forced into prostitution every year in the Netherlands.

Making it Legal and taxing the fuck out if it is NOT going to make any of the problems go away. We have real world and historical examples that say otherwise.

I do have a question for you then Gaf, in all for seriousness: If it's 1,000 - 7,000 women each year in a place where it's legal....how many foreign women are forced into sex slavery every year in America?

And furthermore...how many women FROM America are forced into being prostitutes in America each year by a pimp who tricked them and is now keeping them hostage?

So...where's the number on that? I'd like to see it.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

In the US? about 17,500 per year.

Now.. you want to do the math to find out if thats a larger number or not?

Hey... lets make if a closer comparision... all of Europe vs. the USA

USA - 17,500 per year average

Europe - 34,000 per year average. (And in half of Europe, prostitution is legal)(Almost 1/2 of those are in the Netherlands and Germany... the countrys with the "best" laws for prostitution)

Europe has a population of about 728,000,000 people

The USA has a population of about 301,139,947

You know... mathmatically... in Europe.. where it's legal for the most part... they have almost the same rate of Forced prostitution.

I'm sorry... the logic that making it legal and taxing the fuck out of it will somehow make all the bad aspects go away does not stand up to the reality of the world.

[Destroit]

In the US? about 17,500 per year.

Now.. you want to do the math to find out if thats a larger number or not?

Hey... lets make if a closer comparision... all of Europe vs. the USA

USA - 17,500 per year average

Europe - 34,000 per year average. (And in half of Europe, prostitution is legal)(Almost 1/2 of those are in the Netherlands and Germany... the countrys with the "best" laws for prostitution)

Europe has a population of about 728,000,000 people

The USA has a population of about 301,139,947

You know... mathmatically... in Europe.. where it's legal for the most part... they have almost the same rate of Forced prostitution.

I'm sorry... the logic that making it legal and taxing the fuck out of it will somehow make all the bad aspects go away does not stand up to the reality of the world.

So...what you're telling me is that it's the same rate in an illegal country as it is in a legal one?

So, then if we made it legal it wouldn't get worse, it would just stay the same?

In that case, legalize it . At least we'd be able to get taxes from it. So I guess it would actually be better to make it legal since it would be the same rate, but we'd at least be able to get tax money from it, and people wouldn't have to feel shady or dirty for wanting no-strings-attached sex.

Furthermore, it would at least protect the girls that are actually FROM America a bit more, IMO. I'm not saying that it's right that women from foreign countries are forced into it, but it's better to have one less group of people (American women) victimized by this.

[Steven]

Uhmmmm...did she choose to do it? She "needed the money"? Well then get a fucking secretary job like me . If you're a hooker and you're complaining about being fucked up in the head....you uhmmm SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN A PROSTITUTE. Duh!

Fuck if a whore said to me that she was fucked up in the head from years of being a hooker, as cold as this sounds, if SHE chose that profession I'd look her right in the eyes and say: "Well...it serves you fucking right"

If someone ruins their own life, it's on them. What I DON'T like is the fact that young women are being KIDNAPPED off the streets and trafficked to other places in the country, away from their families against their will. If we had it LEGAL then we could set up clean and safe brothels for people to get some paid for sex at. No pimps beating women. No rape. No men forcing STD infected cock into unwilling and frightened college girls. None of that.

You don't believe me? Check a place called NEVADA where it's legal and the women in brothels there LOVE their jobs. I had to hear about it all this morning on Montel Williams (ironically enough).

Women who are in prostitution on their own free will are never victims, EVER. Not even for a second. That's like hurling myself off the top of a building and saying the guy standing in the stairwell on the third floor was the one who did it . Make sense? Of course not. So women who are willingly hookers dig their own grave. If they're "fucked up" later on in life, well then good.

I also wouldn't pick on Phee's logic when it makes absolutely perfect sense IMO.

Gads, your rebutting me with what you heard on Montel Williams and then telling me im picking on Phee's logic?

Montel is a TV show. You watch it from your living room while munching fish sticks.

How much of what I was talking about do you think I learned from TV Chernobyl?

[Destroit]

Gads, your rebutting me with what you heard on Montel Williams and then telling me im picking on Phee's logic?

Montel is a TV show. You watch it from your living room while munching fish sticks.

How much of what I was talking about do you think I learned from TV Chernobyl?

Uhmm...I dunno. Ever been to Nevada and met those prostitutes? You know, the legal ones? If you haven't, then you don't know anything about them. All you've seen is from your experiences, I was hearing it straight from the whore's mouth so-to-speak. You've only seen the bad side, so in this case your opinion is also biased. Unless you talked to every single prostitute in Nevada or heard their testimonial about the business, that is.

I've also seen programs/read articles/researched about the prostitution business in Nevada and haven't heard anything really that bad about it. More pros than cons, that is.

[Msterbeau]

I'd just like to point out that all the abuse, kidnapping, etc that are perpetrated on the prostitutes is also done to many, many people who are not prostitutes. These are people for whom these kinds of behaviors are a way of life and they do them because that's how they've learned to live. THEY are the problem. Take the money that was formerly spent on prostitution stings and some of the taxes from the legalization and go after these people instead.

I'd also like to point out that I don't think anyone here has said everything will be all roses and butterflies for the prostitutes. But it will improve their situations to some degree. Just the fact that it's legal would probably take a huge amount of stress away, and as some of us have surely experienced, that's no small thing.

[phee]

*fucked up like DGN logic SUperdad flies in with his gothic cape of love*

If prostitution is outlawed only outlaws will be prostitutes.... (hey if the NRA can use it, so can I... and guns hurt people too!)

Anyway... Steven...

ok super Dad.

sex is legal. so your 18 year old daughter gets to bone an old man for nice things - lets use that scenario. Only shes a prostitute - therefore she's fucking LOTS of old men. And I doubt she's in a penthouse in Borneo. SHe's probably at a no tell motel on Mi Ave

She might end up fucking lots of old men without being a prostitute like a good old fashion tramp, and I think by having a government run brothel, that would negate my lovely daughter from having sex in a MI ave "Sleep and Fuck" Motel...

by the way lots of them are paying to degrade her - that's a good part of the mix, hence my reference of butt boofing.

OK... so you are equating butt sex to degradation, and er... I am sorry I don't think you have a point here... are you saying that oral and missionary sex are not degrading, or are you saying that only when my daughter does it, then it would be degrading? Or maybe the other sex is fine for prostitutes, except the butt sex.... or maybe, if two non prostitutes... Maybe the point I am trying to make here is that plenty of people degrade each other in monogamous butt sex filled relationships everyday, but I guess if its a prostitute who accepted money for it OH MY!! that is too far....

Baby Phee starts taking in large volumes of strange dick. She doesent even like these guys. Some of them smell. some of them are twisted. some of them are just assholes. some of them say thigns to her that nobody should hear. some of them remind her of her own SUper Dad. But - money is money - so she lets every one of them stick his dick in her and pound away.

You have described a good portion of the women and men at the clubs I go to... and the world here... a lot of people have fucked up sex lives, one night stands, are twisted... but somehow this is OK as long as money was not exchanged? Yeah... I am the one with the strange logic. *scratches head*

its her right, after all. and taxable. and blue cross covers the penecillin.

Yup... I would want my daughter to be insured, wouldn't you?

so she does that for a few years, a few thousand times - hey - its all her choice anyway....

and then later we discover that shes been affected by it.

its in her head.

and her relationships are therefore affected by it.

and maybe she has kids, and they are affected by it.

You have described about a lot of different things here that could all be in this statement... Sleeping pills, Alcohol, Sunbathing, Bad relationships, Car racing, Being a Marine.... *sigh* Anything you do in your life affects your relationships, some good some bad... it depends on the individual.

its just sex. just money. and Phee was cool with it anyway.

and your right, you may not like it Phee.

Question is - would you even bother to do anything about it?

Cool with it, and thinking it should be legal are different things... If my daughter was legally smoking cigarettes and destroying her lungs... no I would not be cool with it, but I don't think smoking should be illegal.

And yeah... I would try to talk to her, like any self respecting parent would do... I don't think putting her in prison because it is illegal makes any sense at all, but if you think thats what would be best for your daughter... well that's your conscience.

[phee]

Just curious Steven.... you don't have any kids correct? And why can't I have a son that's a prostitute?

[Steven]

Uhmm...I dunno. Ever been to Nevada and met those prostitutes? You know, the legal ones? If you haven't, then you don't know anything about them. All you've seen is from your experiences, I was hearing it straight from the whore's mouth so-to-speak. You've only seen the bad side, so in this case your opinion is also biased. Unless you talked to every single prostitute in Nevada or heard their testimonial about the business, that is.

I've also seen programs/read articles/researched about the prostitution business in Nevada and haven't heard anything really that bad about it. More pros than cons, that is.

Nevada?

No.

Have I known prostitutes and their stories? Yes.

As for the bad side that I've seen - I'll give you that one. But I'd like to add that that the majority of what Ive been talking about has littel to do with the more "obvious" forms of abuse - and much more to do with the after affects of the lifestyle.

2nd adder - I think your mistaken in what you've researched in terms of the whores of Nevada. 20/20 just did an expose. You see exactly the kind of heartache Ive been talking about, as well as your loud and proud ones that you've been talking about. The one that struck me the most was a young 23 year old that looked 14. She started tricking as she came out of the foster care system and onto the streets. Bad Choice? oh yeah. But did she have the resources available to her that most people do? No. She was tryign to get straight, become a nurse, had saved her money, was almost there.....but you could see it on her, what the life was doing.

you've been talking about a controlled and edited media peice that has allowed you to form an opinion, and I have to respect that to a degree. But I've been talking about throwaway people, fo which I unfortunately DO have a great many years experience with. I have alos NOT known, every single prostitute in Hollywood or Pomona or van Nuys or San Fransisco, no I have not. So by your logic then yes Im full of shit. I've just known enough of them, thats all, to see a very consistent pattern of behaviour and thinking and end result.

Street life is what it is Chernobyl, and Yes, I'm jaded.

[Steven]

Just curious Steven.... you don't have any kids correct? And why can't I have a son that's a prostitute?

Sometimes Phee your amazingly short sighted. My mouth literally pops right open.

Boys can be prostitutes, yes.

May I add that who cares if I beleive that boys can be prostututes and HOW in the world does that in ANY way shape or form detract from or change anything that I was saying? Boy, Girls, Youth - ;ets wrap it all up togethor. And then may I add an "Holy Shit Phee C'mon" to that...

and then a footnote: I knew boys who sucked dick to get a bump because they were junkheads and never inteded to end up that way but got there anyway. To answer Chernobyls charges - hey - stupid asses made their choice. Yep. True. Young stupid asses with little to no effective coping skills made their choices to flirt with a lifestyle that overpowered them. True. Fuck em right?

and then to answer your question - no, I dont have kids. We are physically, incapable of not having miscarriages about three months in. So, I have no kids.

Before you give me the standard rebuttal of "then you dont know what its like to be a parent" - which to some degree I must concede I will offer the following:

I DO know what its like to be a child.

I DO know what its like to be a child unprotected.

I DO know what its like to be a child left to their own devices and limited ability to make good solid life affecting choices.

I know what its like to be a kid in the street.

I know that kids are still kids, even way up into their 20's, especially if they have not been raised inside of a healthy, protective, sound environement and that those shortcomings only exascerbate future issues.

I also know what its like to be a child who is being raised in a very hardcore environment first hand.

I also know what its like to have mentorship that I never asked for, thrust upon me by throwaway kids, because they KNEW I had been there and the adults is their lives didint give a shit about them when tested enough.

[Steven]

*fucked up like DGN logic SUperdad flies in with his gothic cape of love*

If prostitution is outlawed only outlaws will be prostitutes.... (hey if the NRA can use it, so can I... and guns hurt people too!)

Anyway... Steven...

She might end up fucking lots of old men without being a prostitute like a good old fashion tramp, and I think by having a government run brothel, that would negate my lovely daughter from having sex in a MI ave "Sleep and Fuck" Motel...

OK... so you are equating butt sex to degradation, and er... I am sorry I don't think you have a point here... are you saying that oral and missionary sex are not degrading, or are you saying that only when my daughter does it, then it would be degrading? Or maybe the other sex is fine for prostitutes, except the butt sex.... or maybe, if two non prostitutes... Maybe the point I am trying to make here is that plenty of people degrade each other in monogamous butt sex filled relationships everyday, but I guess if its a prostitute who accepted money for it OH MY!! that is too far....

You have described a good portion of the women and men at the clubs I go to... and the world here... a lot of people have fucked up sex lives, one night stands, are twisted... but somehow this is OK as long as money was not exchanged? Yeah... I am the one with the strange logic. *scratches head*

Yup... I would want my daughter to be insured, wouldn't you?

You have described about a lot of different things here that could all be in this statement... Sleeping pills, Alcohol, Sunbathing, Bad relationships, Car racing, Being a Marine.... *sigh* Anything you do in your life affects your relationships, some good some bad... it depends on the individual.

Cool with it, and thinking it should be legal are different things... If my daughter was legally smoking cigarettes and destroying her lungs... no I would not be cool with it, but I don't think smoking should be illegal.

And yeah... I would try to talk to her, like any self respecting parent would do... I don't think putting her in prison because it is illegal makes any sense at all, but if you think thats what would be best for your daughter... well that's your conscience.

OK first, keep scratching your head, that is a perfect picture for me.

next - I fucked up with the Butt Sex illustration because your stuck on it - REALLY stuck on it - I should have used something else - PHEE - I DONT CARE ABOUT BUTT SEX - IT WAS JUT A METAPHORE FOR DEGRADATION. You may butt fuck. Go for it. Had I come up with something else you would have used that too, because you have a style of tryign to "literalize" a statement into somethign else its not inteded to be - you argue that which is not foundational to the point being made, its silly and juvenile. I dont care how you fuck Phee. Lets make that a banner somewhere here in DGN "STEVEN DOES NOT CARE HOW PHEE FUX"

there....I think we've covered that one to death. such a waste that was, trying to bait me into something so stupid, you do that all the time and you suck at it.

I noticed you have not addressed Gaf's data at all by the way, just my own statements about your values.....and all Gaf really did (excellently I might add) was bring hard data into that which i already stated was something I know first hand is factual.

In fact I often wonder Phee exactlty what the fuck you know about any fucking thing first hand. Seriously. I sometimes think that all you know first hand is the rules of DGN, which somebody is no doubt about to lay on me.

ok so Phee wants blue Cross and tile floors in his whore houses with a pesi machine, we've established that, moving on now into something worthwhile ......

[phee]

Thank you Steven...

I rest my case.

[Steven]

Thank you Steven...

I rest my case.

well, your resting thats for sure. and head scratching.

[Destroit]

Nevada?

No.

Have I known prostitutes and their stories? Yes.

As for the bad side that I've seen - I'll give you that one. But I'd like to add that that the majority of what Ive been talking about has littel to do with the more "obvious" forms of abuse - and much more to do with the after affects of the lifestyle.

2nd adder - I think your mistaken in what you've researched in terms of the whores of Nevada. 20/20 just did an expose. You see exactly the kind of heartache Ive been talking about, as well as your loud and proud ones that you've been talking about. The one that struck me the most was a young 23 year old that looked 14. She started tricking as she came out of the foster care system and onto the streets. Bad Choice? oh yeah. But did she have the resources available to her that most people do? No. She was tryign to get straight, become a nurse, had saved her money, was almost there.....but you could see it on her, what the life was doing.

you've been talking about a controlled and edited media peice that has allowed you to form an opinion, and I have to respect that to a degree. But I've been talking about throwaway people, fo which I unfortunately DO have a great many years experience with. I have alos NOT known, every single prostitute in Hollywood or Pomona or van Nuys or San Fransisco, no I have not. So by your logic then yes Im full of shit. I've just known enough of them, thats all, to see a very consistent pattern of behaviour and thinking and end result.

Street life is what it is Chernobyl, and Yes, I'm jaded.

Soooo...there you go. We both have the same knowledge on legal hookers, what we've seen on TV.

Furthermore, that 23 year old girl is stupid. NOBODY ever has to prostitute to get by under ANY circumstances. She made her bed and now she gets to lie in it, boo-fucking-hoo. When I was out of a job a year ago I didn't go "You know...8 Mile is only a block away, I think, you know, I'll just go hike up my skirt and let some 80 year old man put it up my butt for fifty bucks." I guarantee you, Steven, that thought didn't cross my mind . I thought to myself "Well shit...looks like I need to get me another job" and I did and so here I am supporting myself at 22 years old.

Nobody ever EVER needs to prostitute "for the money". If they do, then they're either incredibly stupid or already really fucked up in the head. Those girls aren't victims, not one bit.

[odims_sphere]

ok so Phee wants blue Cross and tile floors in his whore houses with a pesi machine, we've established that, moving on now into something worthwhile ......

Prostitution is going to exist, legal or not, if we want it or not. It always has, and always will. I'm sure those enlisting their services would appreciate tile floors and a pepsi machine as opposed to a back ally dumpster. Also those providing the service would prefer Blue cross to Dr. Shady and his bag of rusty knifes and peroxide.

Just because it's legal doesn't make it a required profession. If you legalize it and regulate it you make it a legitimate profession that's less likely to force women who are unwilling.

[phee]

I have gathered Steven that you have had a difficult life and seen some very disturbing things throughout it, from this post and many, many posts in the pasts... however I am not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand.

[Destroit]

OK first, keep scratching your head, that is a perfect picture for me.

next - I fucked up with the Butt Sex illustration because your stuck on it - REALLY stuck on it - I should have used something else - PHEE - I DONT CARE ABOUT BUTT SEX - IT WAS JUT A METAPHORE FOR DEGRADATION. You may butt fuck. Go for it. Had I come up with something else you would have used that too, because you have a style of tryign to "literalize" a statement into somethign else its not inteded to be - you argue that which is not foundational to the point being made, its silly and juvenile. I dont care how you fuck Phee. Lets make that a banner somewhere here in DGN "STEVEN DOES NOT CARE HOW PHEE FUX"

there....I think we've covered that one to death. such a waste that was, trying to bait me into something so stupid, you do that all the time and you suck at it.

I noticed you have not addressed Gaf's data at all by the way, just my own statements about your values.....and all Gaf really did (excellently I might add) was bring hard data into that which i already stated was something I know first hand is factual.

In fact I often wonder Phee exactlty what the fuck you know about any fucking thing first hand. Seriously. I sometimes think that all you know first hand is the rules of DGN, which somebody is no doubt about to lay on me.

ok so Phee wants blue Cross and tile floors in his whore houses with a pesi machine, we've established that, moving on now into something worthwhile ......

Actually...I commented on Gaf's data. You know, the data that says that trafficking is the same between countries that have legal prostitution as opposed to illegal prostitution. Basically incinuating that if we legalized it, trafficking and abuse would stay the same, not go up or down, which made me come to the observation: Well at least we'll be collecting taxes from it and certain girls in America will be more protected, even if it's not all of them.

Personally, to add this, and I'm not sure if Gaf would be able to find this data, but I'm wondering if the level of abuse done on prostitutes by pimps/johns is the same in a country that is legal as opposed to in a country that is not legal.

That actually does make me ponder a bit. I'd be willing to bet those girls get smacked around worse here than in a place like the Netherlands. In the Netherlands it's an actual job, and lemme tell you, if I came into work today and my boss started beating me because I forgot to fax something, Re/Max would have a new secretary and Century 21 would be out one. Since here they're FORCED into it, makes me think there's a bit more hitting going on.

[the eternal]

to Steven for the miscarriages.

I hope you guys are able to adopt someday, if that's what you want to do.

I am very mixed on this issue, as I can see good points on both sides.

It will exist.

There will always be a horribly seedy side (sex slavery, children)

And there should be things in place to protect and benefit the women.

(And I got the George Carlin reference, Phee )

Yet, at the same time----

It will always be an accepted way to exploit, objectify, and emotionally destroy women (and to a lesser extent men)

(And, although I respect it, I don't subscribe to the Ayn Rand philosophy that Chernobyl and others may do.

I DO think I'm my brother's keeper, and that has guided my social and political viewpoints)

It will also always be an easy NSA way for men to cheat on their wives/girlfriends and legalization could lead to

an even greater form of normalization for this.

And legalization can lead to greater acceptance of degradation.

I've been in Europe.

Sex is freer there. Prostitution is legal in some countries

But there's also more of a blurring of the line of what is appropriate.

And I think children/teens are more objectified there due to the loosening of mores.

I don't find any easy answers here.

But I do find it sad that people that are normally more polite and respectfull of each other,

have gotten very angry and personal about this.

This is why I try to stay out of these threads more.

I hope things will ease up, because at the end of the day,

public sex policy will not be changed from the outcome of this thread.

That's all.

[Destroit]

But I do find it sad that people that are normally more polite and respectfull of each other,

have gotten very angry and personal about this.

This is why I try to stay out of these threads more.

I hope things will ease up, because at the end of the day,

public sex policy will not be changed from the outcome of this thread.

That's all.

Ha, words from the wise

[bean]

I've read over this thread a few times this morning, trying to figure out how to respond. Do I waste my time giving my $.02, or do I just say "fuck it" and go back to bed to hopefully sleep off my migraine?

This topic is obviously a touchy subject for some people, but that doesn't excuse some of the comments made in this thread. Shame on you.

As for this topic: I'm mixed about it. There are obviously some very bad things about prostitution, but there could be some good things about legalizing it.

Yes, prostitution is degrading to women and there are some other really nasty things that comes along with it, but that happens in other professions as well, though probably not to that extreme.

Strippers are degraded big time, Hooters girls, female bartenders who wear skimpy clothes to get better tips, so on and so forth. Once these women "punch in" for their shift, they no longer a human being; they become nothing more than tits and ass. Obviously, the bartender isn't going through the same thing as a prostitute, but I'm willing to bet that somewhere in her mind, there's something fucked up.

Some of the arguments against prostitution have to do with how these women are treated. Guess what? There are women who have boyfriends or husbands that beat them on a regular basis and make them do things they normally wouldn't do.

If prostitution became legal, and my 18 year old daughter (if I had a child) decided to become a prostitute, I wouldn't be happy. I also wouldn't be happy if my daughter decided to become a stripper or a Hooters girl, or a porn star, or decided to enter beauty pageants. I'd try to talk her out of doing these things, and I'd be sad that maybe I didn't raise her better (to want to choose a better path in life), but ultimately it is her decision.

[freydis]

I think a lot of the responses in this thread have been very wrapped up in the respondant's moral stance on prostitution.

Like any other profession, it has it's sucessful, well rounded people, and it has it's fuck-ups. Honestly, you could make the same comparisons to any type of sex worker; phone sex operators, porn stars, whatever.

It's also quite literally, as they say, the "oldest profession".

It's not going anywhere.

Give people in this trade some rights and protections, and conditions will improve some.

I'm actually surprised no one's brought up porn in this thread. Essentially, its a similar enough trade; its a person having sex in exchange for money. It's just a little better regulated.

[Steven]

Prostitution is going to exist, legal or not, if we want it or not. It always has, and always will. I'm sure those enlisting their services would appreciate tile floors and a pepsi machine as opposed to a back ally dumpster. Also those providing the service would prefer Blue cross to Dr. Shady and his bag of rusty knifes and peroxide.

Just because it's legal doesn't make it a required profession. If you legalize it and regulate it you make it a legitimate profession that's less likely to force women who are unwilling.

you guys keep referencing just one slice of my opposition to legalized prostitution.

ultimately I am against it for the bitter end results on a personal level to the participants, primarily the prostitute.

yes, freedom of choice and all, I do get that. I simply dont want to make what I think is a tragedy - EASIER by legalizing it. Legalization does not neccesarily equate to good, or even "better".

The majority of my argument has little to do with disease and abuse - my main concern (and you guys may think its none of my business but hey - I'm flawed that way by giving a shit about people) is the fracture to the psyche. it is very easy to be dismissive this way when you are safe and unaffected, because it doesent really touch you personally. And yet on teh flip side - si see so many people here in DGN and within this subculture who are jasded, without faith, without hope, without connection to each other, and I think this is part of teh problem....this "clinical" outlook on things.

and Phee - yes i have seen alot of things, this is true. I do not beleive however that it makes me an extremist, it simply makes my perspective "odd" in light of the subject matter - because you often argue from outside sources of information that I feel are tragically short sighted to a whole other dimension worth exploring. Its the same thign Im tryign to tell Chernobyl - that I dont care what Montell Williams tells you - once you look in the face of a littel kid who knows her mother is fucking bikers for money you see a different sort of dynamic that takes a life of its own.

in fact seldom if ever do I argue a "moral" perspective based soley on morality - I have a tendency to look at people and where they end up far more than I look at black and white and right and wrong.

[Steven]

Soooo...there you go. We both have the same knowledge on legal hookers, what we've seen on TV.

Furthermore, that 23 year old girl is stupid. NOBODY ever has to prostitute to get by under ANY circumstances. She made her bed and now she gets to lie in it, boo-fucking-hoo. When I was out of a job a year ago I didn't go "You know...8 Mile is only a block away, I think, you know, I'll just go hike up my skirt and let some 80 year old man put it up my butt for fifty bucks." I guarantee you, Steven, that thought didn't cross my mind . I thought to myself "Well shit...looks like I need to get me another job" and I did and so here I am supporting myself at 22 years old.

Nobody ever EVER needs to prostitute "for the money". If they do, then they're either incredibly stupid or already really fucked up in the head. Those girls aren't victims, not one bit.

no babe, I offerrd up TV evidence because you did, it is the languiage you are comfy with, so I gave you some.

what I have seen, I have seen up close.

[Destroit]

Chernobyl - that I dont care what Montell Williams tells you - once you look in the face of a littel kid who knows her mother is fucking bikers for money you see a different sort of dynamic that takes a life of its own.

Well yes, I get that, and I do think it's a tragedy. But Steven, what makes you think that having it be illegal will make that woman stop? You think she cares? If she's going to do that for money anyway, she going to do it. I wouldn't want to be the one to tell that child that their mother was brutally murdered by a pimp/john, and legalizing it would help take out the violence.

It's almost like how some school districts are VERY illogical in teaching kids abstinence vs. protection. TEENS WILL HAVE SEX. So...knowing that, would you rather them live to be 25 or have them get HIV? Or would you rather have them dropout of high school from being pregnant, like alot of my "sheltered" friends did who were raised in a religious/moral family that told them sex is wrong instead of telling her how to protect her body?

You can't stop bad people and bad things from happening in the world. You can't save everyone. The best you can do is try to help their conditions, which I believe legalization would do.

I come from a different mindset, I am religious, but I come from a sect of Christianity that believes judgement should only be between the person and God. Would I ever prostitute? No, it's against my beliefs. Do I have the right to tell someone else not to? I'd advise them it isn't good, but anything further than that is not my business. It's between that person and God. Since the government isn't God, I believe they have no right in telling people what they can and can't do. That's all my opinion, that's where I'm coming from, which is why it should be legal.

Furthermore, Steven, what makes you think I haven't seen those children? Trust me, drug houses in Detroit/Hazel Park/Warren are full of them. Not something I'm proud of saying/seeing, but I've been in ALOT of them.

[odims_sphere]

What makes sex a tragedy? Everyone makes the choice to have sex. Whats makes getting paid for it a tragedy when compaired to not getting paid for it as a beautiful, wonderful natural thing?

Is everytime you have sex a tragedy or are you just pushing your personal beliefs on others again?