What Can Actually Change Your Opinion?

[pharoh]

Reading anything in here in regards to religion and prostitution and multiple topics (I used those two because they are the newest example I can think of this morning), I see everyone always tilts to one side. I also see that nobody on here will ever be convinced of anything different than thier own opinion (we all do it lol).

So my question(s) is this:

What can actually persuade you to change your mind?

What are the reasons why you see someone as flawed in thier opinion (they're logic if you will)?

Do you have experience in the subjects at hand other than web based?

---My intentions of this thread is to help comminication between fellow dgn 'rs and try to get a better understanding of each other so it won't get to that level to where we all have seen threads take "THAT" turn. With that being in mind, lets keep it civil.---

I'll put my answer up in a bit cause I gotta go to work

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Depends on the Issue.

If it's one based on science.. such as Global Warming... I follow the science.

If it's something based on Faith or Morals... well, it's going to take a lot to get me to change my mind. You better be able to prove to me that my Moral System and FAith system is wrong.

[Msterbeau]

Depends on the Issue.

If it's one based on science.. such as Global Warming... I follow the science.

If it's something based on Faith or Morals... well, it's going to take a lot to get me to change my mind. You better be able to prove to me that my Moral System and FAith system is wrong.

Yup. Solid facts will get me to re-evaluate my position with respect to topics for which they matter. These days though.. you have to be careful about your sources. Publishing, both books/magazines and on the internet is very easy and anyone can publish psuedo-facts as the real thing.

Faith and morals are a place where there may not be a right and wrong, and therefore a plurality of opinion is acceptable, thus, there's no great incentive to change except when I want to...

[Steven]

On social concerns or ills, because they involve people, I think you have to look beyond statistics because people, lives, and future impact potential gets dropped thru the cracks.

Although it has been argued against me, i actually try to stay away from the "morality" of a given subject and look at the people involved and how it affects them.

And I look at trends, including the trends found in the recurring language used here inside of DGN.

And I look at my own experiences. No one can actually "prove" that my (or anyone's) moral and faith system is wrong on paper. What I try to do is identify and thus measure some form of quality of life, or corruptability of life.

I have indeed changed my views on many things biblically or spiritually or even morally related over the years, and this came from a combination of all of the above.

either that, or I ask The Eternal.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Interesting topic.

I had a 6th grade teacher that tried to make the point fairly clearly that knowledge is rarely, if ever, absolute and is open to future revision. (aka keep an open mind) I didn't buy into it at the the time but i do now. I try to maintain at least a minor expectation that we could be wrong about almost anything. I cant be SURE 100% that the sky is blue, but the probability in my mind is so close to 100% that i pretty much take it for granted. But there's at least a small bit of room for doubt, its not absolute.

Its a question of probability rather than "knowing for sure" lets say. That probability of something being true should I now think, which i did not in years past, scale with information for or against it. And the less probable something seems the more information it would take to change my mind about it.

My opinion about things seems to be fairly flexible at least over the course of time. Especially about things I've not directly studied. I really try not to have bias without evidence, even though there is always going to be bias regardless of how hard i try. I think it helps to think clearer if you at least attempt to be neutral about a subject as much as possible without any actual evidence or study and always maintain at least the possibility that we could just be flat wrong. If I'm wrong, I'm just wrong. I just want to know what the truth is. How i "feel" emotionally is to easily manipulated. If i'm happy about an idea, or sad about it or whatever, i try to not let that have any bearing on if i think its true or not.

Unfortunately a lot of the time we are forced to rely on (very easily wrong) "feelings" about truths. Most of our beliefs are assumptions honestly, because there is just SO much shit to know about, and we don't have time to study all the ins and outs of every last thing. But once information about my assumptions of somethings likelihood is demonstrated to be false, i hope I'm clear headed enough to just go ahead and change my mind, ego be damned.

[pharoh]

Depends on the Issue.

If it's one based on science.. such as Global Warming... I follow the science.

If it's something based on Faith or Morals... well, it's going to take a lot to get me to change my mind. You better be able to prove to me that my Moral System and FAith system is wrong.

I agree with the science part 100%......facts are there and as long as they are unbiased I will agree with them, but thats not to say I won't try to do my own research if I am curious on the subject or I think something is questionable.

I have learned along time ago on this board to stay away from the morals and faith discussion, although lately I have been going against my own rule I set for myself lol. I think for some of the topics I really just dismiss some peoples opinion because I know them and don't care for them OR they wrong'ed me and lost my respect. So I can totally see where your comming from with Morals and Faith especially if they clash with your own.

I think something I would like to see would be alittle more openess to others opinion. We all have the tendancy to shut each other down for whatever reasons, which is why I wrote what I did above. I am guilty of it and admit to it freely.

Steven made some good points about expierience, but ultimately as a subject on dgn, I think alot of people just throw that out the window. A good example was in the prostitution thread.....Steven and Chernobyl both had extreme opposite experiences and clashed (not picking on either of you just an example).

My biggest frustration lately with DGN in general has been topics that are really intresting but, I just get disgusted with them because someone gets bent, throws a "Your Mama" insult out there and then it turns into a pissing contest.....all of which could of been avoided if there was alittle more openess, and overall respect goes out to individuals.

[n0Mad]

I've seen a few people who were anti-gun but they've never even touched one. Once they went to the range, learned about firearm safety and usage, and fired off a few dozen rounds, their minds changed.

Experiencing something firsthand of which you were formerly ignorant on is a great way to change your mind. I call it "Green Eggs and Ham Syndrome".

[Troy Spiral (13)]

My biggest frustration lately with DGN in general has been topics that are really intresting but, I just get disgusted with them because someone gets bent, throws a "Your Mama" insult out there and then it turns into a pissing contest.....all of which could of been avoided if there was alittle more openess, and overall respect goes out to individuals.

Its fairly easy to keep the discussions level headed when the subjects aren't so near and dear to peoples beliefs, but once you get strong opinions involved, about "substantive" subjects it becomes messy. Most people just aren't equipped to deal with contradictory opinions about their strongly held beliefs without getting their haunches up.

Attitude or lack of politeness in making a point really is not a problem on DGN except in this forum to any large, recurring degree. But its been a problem since the ancient times pretty much every day despite a lot of effort. And unfortunately some of the same people with the most meaningful stuff to say, are also the same people that can't seem to say it for very long without a huge dose of rudeness.

The only way really to get more uniform polite people and discussion is 1. massive promotion and 2. more draconian about rules enforcement to shoo away the rude people if they don't shape up. Which is difficult because you end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater with that system at times. Then there is the inevitable cries of persecution and censorship and special treatment.... I could go on like this for 300 pages about the difficulties involved.

[pharoh]

Its fairly easy to keep the discussions level headed when the subjects aren't so near and dear to peoples beliefs, but once you get strong opinions involved, about "substantive" subjects it becomes messy. Most people just aren't equipped to deal with contradictory opinions about their strongly held beliefs without getting their haunches up.

Attitude or lack of politeness in making a point really is not a problem on DGN except in this forum to any large, recurring degree. But its been a problem since the ancient times pretty much every day despite a lot of effort. And unfortunately some of the same people with the most meaningful stuff to say, are also the same people that can't seem to say it for very long without a huge dose of rudeness.

The only way really to get more uniform polite people and discussion is 1. massive promotion and 2. more draconian about rules enforcement to shoo away the rude people if they don't shape up. Which is difficult because you end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater with that system at times. Then there is the inevitable cries of persecution and censorship and special treatment.... I could go on like this for 300 pages about the difficulties involved.

Wasn't a need to address this, I was merely expressing my opinion, I understand the difficulties and was not meaning nothing ill towards you or the board buddy

[TygerLili]

Yup, the only thing that could make me change my mind is hard facts, and by hard facts I don't mean quoting something off a website. You can publish just about anything you want on the internet, and I'm wary of the validity of content of most sites.

I respect and enjoy reading everyone's opinion, and certain thoughtfully worded points and opinions might make me look at something from a different angle, but it's not going to radically change my opinion on anything, unless I was pretty ambivalent about the issue in the first place.

My biggest frustration lately with DGN in general has been topics that are really intresting but, I just get disgusted with them because someone gets bent, throws a "Your Mama" insult out there and then it turns into a pissing contest.....all of which could of been avoided if there was alittle more openess, and overall respect goes out to individuals.

I agree, and, as someone who usually don't spend more than an hour or 2 a day on DGN, if a topic goes into this type of arguing before I have a chance to get on and post my opinion I usually lose interest halfway through reading and never bother posting my opinion. Also, if the same person posts more than 3 times in one topic, I usually tend to skip over the rest of their posts in said topic, because I just don't have the time or energy to read the same opinion from the same person over and over. We get it, you have strong beliefs about this subject, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's time to live and let live and move on now.

[torn asunder]

for me, the funnest part of a conversation (debate-ish) is when someone phrases something in a way i hadn't thought of ebfore, or mentions something that hasn't occurred to me. i'm always happy to reconsider, and if the new info warrants it, i'll gladly change my mind. of course, the info has to be either very solid (facts) or *very* persuasive (opinions) for me to do so, but i actually change my mind on things quite often! (more often than some people might think...)

[Oh_My_Goth]

First we must gather the facts... then the facts must be examined...after that an educated decision can be made.

Most people are stubborn and kinda dumb, so they don't know how to make an informed decision.

[Msterbeau]

My biggest frustration lately with DGN in general has been topics that are really intresting but, I just get disgusted with them because someone gets bent, throws a "Your Mama" insult out there and then it turns into a pissing contest.....all of which could of been avoided if there was alittle more openess, and overall respect goes out to individuals.

I've gotten frustrated with this aspect too. Certain people can't seem to state their opinion or present some new facts without becoming deeply embroiled in topics near and dear to their heart. And they keep countering everyone else's posts until the tension rises and the name calling ensues or everyone gets sick of it and abandons the thread and there's no one left to argue with. I generally post once and only respond again if there's something very compelling, and when things get heated, I bail out. I'm not interested in people's personal problems with each other boiling over into every thread they participate in and I'm pretty sure most of the rest of DGN isn't either.

[Hellion]

I never push my opinions on anyone else,I do not expect anyone to agree with them,but if someone decides to start bs then its all out PM warfare,which I try to avoid,now when it comes to anyone,not specifically on DGN thats brainwashed by Fox news,then I pity you.

[Kit Kat P]

Experience. Or an angle I haven't thought of before. But I like to play Devil's Advocate.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I've always said that if one wishes for me to respect their opinion even if I think it is ridiculous, then they need to respect my opinion when I tell them that I think they are an idiot.

You need to explain why you think their opinion is not reasonable. Otherwise your basically going right into exactly what DGN is trying to keep out, that is , intentional rudeness.

Although I'm on board with the underlying point, that some viewpoints are just so far-fetched that its hard to "respect" them no matter how hard we try, and really maybe they aren't even entitled to respect if they are really bad. Despite that for dialog to continue the conversation needs to be as civil as is possible.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Wasn't a need to address this, I was merely expressing my opinion, I understand the difficulties and was not meaning nothing ill towards you or the board buddy

I don't think you meant it that way, i just felt some sort of innate need to explain that, since its something i spend half my time on DGN (if not more) perpetually trying to improve.

[pharoh]

I've gotten frustrated with this aspect too. Certain people can't seem to state their opinion or present some new facts without becoming deeply embroiled in topics near and dear to their heart. And they keep countering everyone else's posts until the tension rises and the name calling ensues or everyone gets sick of it and abandons the thread and there's no one left to argue with. I generally post once and only respond again if there's something very compelling, and when things get heated, I bail out. I'm not interested in people's personal problems with each other boiling over into every thread they participate in and I'm pretty sure most of the rest of DGN isn't either.

Personally if something is addressed to you than I think you have every right to counter it. If there is a civil dialogue between people and no underlying jabs being thrown, then the conversation at hand could go very well....it's just when it goes to that level I stop posting in it cause like you said I don't want the BS. I am always up for a debate, just when it's done at the appropriate level.

[phee]

Evidence.... pretty clear and simple.

No matter how strongly a person insists on something, no matter how powerful or impassioned... They need more then... "because I say so" or "because I have seen it."

[Rev.Reverence]

I DO WHOLE HEARTEDLY AND INTENTIONALLY, LOOK AT EVERYTHING FROM MORE THAN ONE POINT OF VIEW.

IT IS NOT EASY, BUT I'VE MADE IT AN OBSESSIVE COMPULSION TO DO SO. (I'VE GOT MANY PET O.C.D.'S)

BELIEVING SCIENTISTS WITHOUT CROSS REFERENCING THEIR "FACTS" WITH OTHERS CAN HAVE YOU BELIEVING FALSITIES.

BELIEVING PRIESTS AND PROPHETS WITH OUT CROSS REFERENCING THEIR "FACTS" WITH YOUR OWN HEART CAN END YOU UP IN OBLIVION.

THESE TWO PRINCIPALS (HOWEVER CYNICAL THEY MAY BE) HAVE KEPT ME FROM HAVING TO "CHANGE" MY MIND ABOUT MOST THINGS I'VE EVER BELIEVED IN.

THE THIRD PRINCIPLE IS OPEN-MINDEDNESS.

Rev. Reverence C. R.

[pharoh]

Evidence.... pretty clear and simple.

No matter how strongly a person insists on something, no matter how powerful or impassioned... They need more then... "because I say so" or "because I have seen it."

So to you expierence is not evidence?

[phee]

So to you expierence is not evidence?

Someone else's?

No.

My wife, who I trust more then anyone in the world... if she told me that a purple goat angel came into the bedroom after I have left for work and rubbed her shoulders, no matter how much she believed it, no matter how passionate her experiences with this were... the most I can promise without actually seeing it myself, is believing that SHE believes it.

[ManicQueen]

Evidence.... pretty clear and simple.

No matter how strongly a person insists on something, no matter how powerful or impassioned... They need more then... "because I say so" or "because I have seen it."

I totally agree on this.

I can't just take the word of someone else.. I need my own experience.

[Steven]

Someone else's?

No.

My wife, who I trust more then anyone in the world... if she told me that a purple goat angel came into the bedroom after I have left for work and rubbed her shoulders, no matter how much she believed it, no matter how passionate her experiences with this were... the most I can promise without actually seeing it myself, is believing that SHE believes it.

what if YOU saw the purple goat? (I hate these kinds of examples, they always border on extreme, everyone knows that there are no purple goats in the spring)

with that logic - is there truly no desire within you personally, to have those you value, attatch some from of credibility to your experiences?

for example Ive been married for a long time.

but there were still plenty of years and experiences that Lola and I had that did not include the other.

we know each other, and trust each other however, to trust each other's perspective on those experiences.

I for one, actually DO want that to count....

[Steven]

Personally if something is addressed to you than I think you have every right to counter it.

um....yes