Polygamist Compound Searched...

[Msterbeau]

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID.../804070367/1009

First, this discussion should center on Polygamy (Multiple marriages) not polyamory (Multiple partners).

While I generally don't have a problem with someone being married to multiple people at the same time, I can't help but feel like there's some unhealthy behaviors going on in the Warren Jeff's case and with others that I've read about. It's tough to know what their true feelings are with respect to how their religious beliefs tie into their polygamist beliefs without talking to them. Still... I get a sense that there are fiscal reasons that parents are willing to allow young daughters to marry these older men and become part of the group. I'm not particularly OK with that in this day and age even if it's not uncommon in some cultures. I can't help but think that the accusations of incest are true, and that along with that there are almost certainly issues of subtle mental abuse that the older husbands perpetrate on the younger wives. I'm certainly not OK with that either. The whole thing has a Branch Davidian/ Jim Jones/ cult kinda smell to it that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Thoughts?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Well, that particular sect is not officially part of the Mormon Church and has not been for a long time. Just wanted to get that out there.

I am against multi-partner marriages because I think it's an un-healthy environment to raise children in.

Until the investigation is done though, we really don't know what was going on there. So, from a legal stand point, they maybe doing nothing wrong. The flip side is that by the look of it, they are doing very little that is morally right.

[Pandora]

As for Polygamy, I'm not against the concept when all the involved parties are consenting adults. If the wives are very young then probably no. Marrying very young is almost always a recipe for failure. The younger the person the less time they've had to grow and mature, find themselves, etc.

As for the Branch Davidians, were they a cult? Yes. Did they do some exceptionally illegal and inappropriate things to children, yes they did. But after doing some research and watching a few documentaries I've of the opinion that the ATF is the main cause of the deaths in Waco. If you look at news footage you can see the ATF fired the first and several shots that lead to the main fire and the majority of the deaths. Disgraceful. The hearings in congress are hard to watch as well.

[Rev.Reverence]

I am against multi-partner marriages because I think it's an un-healthy environment to raise children in.

How is Love wrong for children?

Can you site any evidence to that end, that does not concern itself with physical, sexual, or mental/emotional abuse?

M-partner marrage is in the Tora (Old Testiment), Q'ran, &Indian texts, It is practiced tribally AROUND the world...

When SO many theologies agree, don't you have to stop and think again?....

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Well, I have to go on what I see.

My sister-in-law is in a three way marrige. Two moms and one Dad. They have 3 rather confused children. I have never voiced my feelings about the situation outside of my bedroom to my wife.

When my sister-in-law came for a visit... i watched my 5 year old boy and her 5 year old girl playing together and listened to what was said. "Lets play house! I'll be the mommy and you be the daddy.. we don't need a second mommy... thats weird."

My sister-in-law lives in Cali. They home school. The children have little contact outside her family. And the child still thinks what her parents are doing is wrong...

Thats all the justification I need for my feelings.

[Steven]

How is Love wrong for children?

Can you site any evidence to that end, that does not concern itself with physical, sexual, or mental/emotional abuse?

M-partner marrage is in the Tora (Old Testiment), Q'ran, &Indian texts, It is practiced tribally AROUND the world...

When SO many theologies agree, don't you have to stop and think again?....

in documanetaries about american polygamusts - you constantly see the following:

a) VERY young girls being wedded to substantially older adults (say....a 15 year old to a 55 year old)

b) young men who become outcasts because it is their girlfriends who have been set to task of pre arranged covenents.

c) jealousies and strife from competing partners

d) VERY strict control by the males.

[Rev.Reverence]

How is Love wrong for children?

Can you site any evidence to that end, that does not concern itself with physical, sexual, or mental/emotional abuse?

?????

No, you can't, the healthy ones draw no attention.

[Onyx]

Seems the multiple partners are always one man with several women.

I've always wondered what opinions would be if there were multiple males with one woman.

Either way, for me, a monogamous male-female couple for me personally is the ideal situation. I don't think anything else would feel right for me.

[Steven]

?????

No, you can't, the healthy ones draw no attention.

Dude.

"love" can very often also be expressed by providing for and nurturing an environment of decency and order in order to equip that child for the future.

15 year old mommies in competition with other mommies wont always cater to that ideal.

granted "love" means different things to different people.

but you cant just toss a love bomb out there and expect it to be universal truth.

[Rev.Reverence]

Well, I have to go on what I see.

My sister-in-law is in a three way marrige. Two moms and one Dad. They have 3 rather confused children. I have never voiced my feelings about the situation outside of my bedroom to my wife.

When my sister-in-law came for a visit... i watched my 5 year old boy and her 5 year old girl playing together and listened to what was said. "Lets play house! I'll be the mommy and you be the daddy.. we don't need a second mommy... thats weird."

My sister-in-law lives in Cali. They home school. The children have little contact outside her family. And the child still thinks what her parents are doing is wrong...

Thats all the justification I need for my feelings.

Weird doesn't happen to mean WRONG...

You are entitled to feel as you will...

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Weird doesn't happen to mean WRONG...

You are entitled to feel as you will...

No it doesn't... but I heard her tode of voice.. in this case, it does.

[torn asunder]

Dude.

"love" can very often also be expressed by providing for and nurturing an environment of decency and order in order to equip that child for the future.

15 year old mommies in competition with other mommies wont always cater to that ideal.

granted "love" means different things to different people.

but you cant just toss a love bomb out there and expect it to be universal truth.

i would like to note that "decency" is individually/personally dependant...

[Rev.Reverence]

Dude.

"love" can very often also be expressed by providing for and nurturing an environment of decency and order in order to equip that child for the future.

15 year old mommies in competition with other mommies wont always cater to that ideal.

granted "love" means different things to different people.

but you cant just toss a love bomb out there and expect it to be universal truth.

Well a 15 yr old mommy would be in my consideration RAPE.

In addition, any love that must be WON in a competition is not love in my belief.

So you don't think that 3 ADULT people can raise well adjusted children?

[Rev.Reverence]

No it doesn't... but I heard her tode of voice.. in this case, it does.

Perhaps if we put out a sit-com it wouldn't be WEIRD...

Like they did for our Homosexual brothers/sisters...

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

um, my Sister-in-law's family do not own a TV. So a sitcom would not help reprogram her children. Nor could I advocate intentional social programing via the Television.

[Destroit]

Well, that particular sect is not officially part of the Mormon Church and has not been for a long time. Just wanted to get that out there.

I am against multi-partner marriages because I think it's an un-healthy environment to raise children in.

Until the investigation is done though, we really don't know what was going on there. So, from a legal stand point, they maybe doing nothing wrong. The flip side is that by the look of it, they are doing very little that is morally right.

I agree about the children thing. And personally, as much as the women may claim to like it, I have a feeling that they really don't. Even if they do, it's because they were either raised or brainwashed to think that they do, and it's not right imo.

I don't understand the point of it. Really don't. It's very dysfunctional. It almost seems like it's a man's way of just saying "yeeeah lookit what a pimp mack daddy I am with all these women". Economically, it's actually a strain. Sexually the women aren't being gratified. Then there's the awkwardness where the husband comes out of one wife's room after doing her and has to look his other wives in the eye.

Personally, I think the only reason it gets under my skin is because it's massively sexist, and these wives give into it blindly not even realizing it. IMO if they can marry tons of wives out there and that is to continue...us girls need a bunch of husbands . Shiiit, economically that even works out way better, less kids to feed because there's only one woman having them, multiple men working to support those few children.

I guess if the women in these relationships are TRUELY happy, and their children aren't fucked up, I guess that's fine...so long as girls can start taking on multiple husbands . I don't agree with it, and I don't see how it's possible for those kids to not be totally screwed mentally, but it's not my business I guess...?

Still the kid thing perturbs me. It's like how do you face your kids and say "Yeah, you have a lot of mommies because daddy really likes to have sex with them all and just can't settle on one woman" because in my mind...that's the only reason polygamy has a reason to exist. That or to make it feel like you own a harem, i.e. implying the women are totally subservient and useless except to serve you and have sex. That's not love...that's sex. Sex = so opposite of love, especially if you let it be. Actually, in most men's eyes (well not most, but these kind of men) sex/many wives = power.

So actually...in the last paragraph I typed I think I just changed my mind. I'm all for no polygamy period, especially if there's children involved.

[Rev.Reverence]

. Nor could I advocate intentional social programing via the Television.

Aw c'mon it's an American institution...

...besides I was joking... mostly...

[Destroit]

Perhaps if we put out a sit-com it wouldn't be WEIRD...

Like they did for our Homosexual brothers/sisters...

They did, it's called "Big Love" and it succeeded to just weird people out further.

[Destroit]

How is Love wrong for children?

Can you site any evidence to that end, that does not concern itself with physical, sexual, or mental/emotional abuse?

M-partner marrage is in the Tora (Old Testiment), Q'ran, &Indian texts, It is practiced tribally AROUND the world...

When SO many theologies agree, don't you have to stop and think again?....

Multi marriages don't equal love.

Multi marriages = power for men. Plain and simple. A way to feel like you own a damn harem, sex does not equal love unless you let it.

[Destroit]

How is Love wrong for children?

Can you site any evidence to that end, that does not concern itself with physical, sexual, or mental/emotional abuse?

M-partner marrage is in the Tora (Old Testiment), Q'ran, &Indian texts, It is practiced tribally AROUND the world...

When SO many theologies agree, don't you have to stop and think again?....

Pssssht. Not on theologies, the people in those holy books were all sorts of fucked up, just read them . Definately not what I would base my decisions on, especially the older religions. I only buy into the New Testament, period.

BUT if you show the psychology case study done by several researchers over time that state there is absolutely no negative impact emotionally and mentally to these children from being raised in such an environment...then I will bow out gracefully and say "shit...well I guess I need to get five other women and one guy and go get married!"

[Destroit]

in documanetaries about american polygamusts - you constantly see the following:

a) VERY young girls being wedded to substantially older adults (say....a 15 year old to a 55 year old)

b) young men who become outcasts because it is their girlfriends who have been set to task of pre arranged covenents.

c) jealousies and strife from competing partners

d) VERY strict control by the males.

Well of course, this would be expected. Like I said, these men imo do this out of power, not out of love. It's never out of love for them, they just want a harem so they can feel like a king.

[Destroit]

Weird doesn't happen to mean WRONG...

You are entitled to feel as you will...

Lastly, as my last post for this thread, no weird doesn't necessarily mean "wrong"...but it's a really good indicator.

Not everything that is weird is wrong, but to everything that is wrong is definately technically "weird", that's why it's a good indicator.

There is a lot of wrong in the world, you just need to know what kind of weird to look for to find it (and I have a feeling the polygamy kind of weird is borderline of that)

[vampire]

well .. i'll have to say ... you can have as many wifes as you want ...

as long as you can financially afford that.

... i am pretty sure you have an idea of what a "harem" is.

I don't have to explain why. Or give any examples from ancient times or current times.

can you LOVE 50 women ?

.... well on the course of you life you probably love more than 1000.

so .. there you go they just happen to be at the same time.

[Destroit]

So you don't think that 3 ADULT people can raise well adjusted children?

Damnit...last post I swear. For this, I'd actually have to see a case of it to believe it, because I don't think three people in that sort of relationship could raise a better child than two, imo.

[Rev.Reverence]

I agree about the children thing. And personally, as much as the women may claim to like it, I have a feeling that they really don't. Even if they do, it's because they were either raised or brainwashed to think that they do, and it's not right imo.

I don't understand the point of it. Really don't. It's very dysfunctional. It almost seems like it's a man's way of just saying "yeeeah lookit what a pimp mack daddy I am with all these women". Economically, it's actually a strain. Sexually the women aren't being gratified. Then there's the awkwardness where the husband comes out of one wife's room after doing her and has to look his other wives in the eye. It's just dirty, morally wrong by my set standard of morals.

Wow, I can agree with alot ya'll are saying about the MORMONS. Sick, ALL totalitarians are.

In fact, my posts may be off subject (but that would not surprise anyone that knows me)...

But, no one here is thinking on the same angles as I so:

1)I can't think of the word 'MY', as in 'my room', I am married, everything is OURS. So I can not possibly think of having two wives live in separate rooms. That would be degrading.

2)In the 'I-ching' {book} it states that a mans first and second wives MUST 'be as sisters' in our language that would be like saying best friends.

3)Any one who thinks two people can complete the Karma Sutra; needs to look through it more closely.

4)If the husband cannot satisfy his first wife; he cannot have a second wife; if he can not satisfy the two he can not acquire a third. (it's just like at dinner time)

5)If you want to say the man is boasting 'pimp' status, that would be RENTING his wives out. (new thread)

6)I'm no economical statition, but, I think your wrong there, one could simply 'budget' and 'buy in bulk' also sewing machiens are not as complicated as one would think. Also how do you think a 'normal' family of 8 survives?

So please... just stop judging EVERYONE in one group, because SOME people are douchbags...