Study Says Smoking Ban In Bars And Restaurants Is Better For Health And No Harm On Business.

[Fierce Critter]

I do agree....HOWEVER....in what your saying implies a choice. And now smoking is being BANNED....so its not about where it is or isn't allowed.....by making everything NON-Smoking...it makes that you do your thing, I'll do my thing view pretty one sided.

The owner of the establishment is making the choice to not have smoking in his establishment.

If the government is mandating a ban, however, they're making the choice to ensure that people who don't wan't to breathe in your shit don't have to get in fucking fights about something that should be COMMON SENSE.

Like it or not. Debate it back and forth and up and down. The fact still remains that smoking puts something foreign into the air that wasn't there before you lit up.

It's still simple.

That said, as much of a militant anti-smoker as I am, I don't necessarily agree with governmental bans on smoking. However, when it comes to outdoor, public places, I think the government has just as much say about smoking as they do about where you can and cannot do certain things that affect others.

[Draco1958]

I love these debates. Everyone gets so passionate about their side. One theme is about everytime you light up you put shit in the air that wasn't there. Hmmm, what about that car sitting next to you in traffic spewing toxic exhaust so bad it looks like it's trying to screen destroyers during WWII? Or what about someone who wears so much cologne that my throat closes up and I can't breathe? What about all the junk going in the air from other things? It's funny how smokers always get to hear the bitching from nonsmokers yet so many other things that cause the same problems are ignored. If I go someplace that is nonsmoking, that's fine. it is my choice to go there. However on the same note, it's amazing how some nonsmokers will go to a place that allows it, complain about it and want the government to enforce rules to totally ban smoking. Yes you have the right to not breathe in my shit but you don't have the right to force places to become nonsmoking just because you want it. There is room for both sides. Better ventilation systems can reduce the effects quite well. However govt would rather enforce a ban and cause a business to lose money instead of helping them afford the systems that could reduce the problem in a big way. The govt needs to work on reducing air pollution across the board, not just on smokers since plants and cars create more than smokers cause. I understand not wanting to smell like an ashtray but I don't want to smell like white diamonds either yet I have to put up with it because no one wants to complain about that nor hear about it because it's not a problem to some. If you go someplace that allows smoking, deal with it or don't go. If I can't deal with a nonsmoking place I won't go and I'm not gonna complain about it. I will just deal with it. It's just that smoking is a popular bandwagon while the other problems are easier to avoid.

[Hellion]

I love these debates. Everyone gets so passionate about their side. One theme is about everytime you light up you put shit in the air that wasn't there. Hmmm, what about that car sitting next to you in traffic spewing toxic exhaust so bad it looks like it's trying to screen destroyers during WWII? Or what about someone who wears so much cologne that my throat closes up and I can't breathe? What about all the junk going in the air from other things? It's funny how smokers always get to hear the bitching from nonsmokers yet so many other things that cause the same problems are ignored. If I go someplace that is nonsmoking, that's fine. it is my choice to go there. However on the same note, it's amazing how some nonsmokers will go to a place that allows it, complain about it and want the government to enforce rules to totally ban smoking. Yes you have the right to not breathe in my shit but you don't have the right to force places to become nonsmoking just because you want it. There is room for both sides. Better ventilation systems can reduce the effects quite well. However govt would rather enforce a ban and cause a business to lose money instead of helping them afford the systems that could reduce the problem in a big way. The govt needs to work on reducing air pollution across the board, not just on smokers since plants and cars create more than smokers cause. I understand not wanting to smell like an ashtray but I don't want to smell like white diamonds either yet I have to put up with it because no one wants to complain about that nor hear about it because it's not a problem to some. If you go someplace that allows smoking, deal with it or don't go. If I can't deal with a nonsmoking place I won't go and I'm not gonna complain about it. I will just deal with it. It's just that smoking is a popular bandwagon while the other problems are easier to avoid.

Excellent rant post,Draco

How about someone's BO,thats offensive too,who wants to smell that!!??EEEUUUWWW!!!

All I say is take a damn shower,I have worked with ppl that never bathed.

BTW this is not directed at you Draco,just lettin you know

Now back to the regular scheduled programming.

[xbittergracex]

One theme is about everytime you light up you put shit in the air that wasn't there. Hmmm, what about that car sitting next to you in traffic spewing toxic exhaust so bad it looks like it's trying to screen destroyers during WWII? Or what about someone who wears so much cologne that my throat closes up and I can't breathe? What about all the junk going in the air from other things? It's funny how smokers always get to hear the bitching from nonsmokers yet so many other things that cause the same problems are ignored.

THANK YOU. This is exactly what I'm saying. I think it should be up to the establishment. But I get sick of hearing how disgusting what I do is, when in all reality, I could probably find 10 disgusting things that person does in return. Simple fact is....its a cigarette, I'm not shooting heroine up your arm, I'm not shoving coke up your kids nose. People have been smoking forever, and nobody ever cared. ALL OF A SUDDEN.....back around the late seventies, early eighties...the government gets involved, and now there are die-hard anti-smokers who are allowed to insult and now BAN smokers openly....and if I am offended...I get "tough shit, its healthy". Well if I followed you around and insulted you on everything you did, all in the name of health, I'm sure you'd get sick of me really quickly.

I'm really annoyed that I am a little pissed off over a simple debate on the internet, but I have to say this is an offensive subject. I'm not stupid, I enjoy smoking. I don't bitch about all the stuff Draco said, I don't like a lot of things that go on inside restaurants and some bars, but I'm not going to start a movement to ban or remove people from somewhere. Everyone, smokers or not, have the right to thier opinion, but the fact of the matter is, its a total losing fight for smokers, and I'm sorry...it isn't fair. I understand the health stuff, I understand the smell, but its not like smoke is the ONLY thing going on around these anti-smokers that causes concern. 99% of the people who have bitched to me about smoking eat out on a regular basis, or eat reese's like they're going out of style, or LIVE IN THE GREATER DETROIT AREA WHERE THE AIR IS SOOOO DAMN CLEAN TO BEGIN WITH, or they sleep longer than the recommended 6-8 hours, or the spend too much time online, or they have pets even though they have allergies, or they do any OTHER NUMBER of things that are just as unhealthy or even proven to be MORE unhealthy than cigarettes.

I don't understand why its okay to tell me fuck off and tough shit and that I'm dirtying up the air (pfft) but the fact is I couldn't turn around and tell you you're fat and to put down the big mac or to turn off your computer and take a fucking walk because you're just as useless as I seem to be. Come on. Where is the line? Where is the choice? We keep talking about this choice we have to stay away or deal with it.....when can we ban non-smokers so that I can enjoy my after-dinner cigarette? We can't. So its not a choice. Lets just give the government complete control....eventually we'll have curfews and chips in our hands that tell us what we can and can't do anyways.

[Hellion]

BO and farts and stinky feet probably are not good to breath either,LOL!!

[ttogreh]

OK.

Fine.

Methodology.

If a person EVER comes into contact with cigarette smoke and then later gets lung cancer from working in a coal mine for 30 years. It's counted as a smoking related death.

and ttogreh, why are you not trying to get laser printers banned? Do you know how much Ozone they produce? How about you Marc? How about the Ionic Breeze? It's sole purpose is to create ozone and pump it into your house. And you live in Michigan! What about all the Radon gas that seeps out of the ground into your house?

Look. Before you attack me. I am dieing. I have about 6-10 years left (maybe) before the Emphazema makes me cough my lungs out and kills me in a horrible way. I've smoked since I was 12. Know what? It wasn't the smoking thats killing me. It was the chemical burns in my lungs from an industrial accident.

I would really like to die in a country where I am free. So please, keep your facists policys in check until after I die. Then you can inact all the leftwing policys you want.

Ok... if you would be so kind as to link to or quote from the study with the methodology that you described, I would be thankful. An assertion of such seriousness requires verifiable proof.

Now, I could be trite, and dismiss the laser printers and ionizers as straw men, but seeing as this thread involves the subject of air pollution, that would not be truthful on my part. A coal plant is many times more harmful to the overall environment than a laser printer or ionizer. Start with the big polluters, and then work your way down.

As for radon gas, Ann Arbor, the seat of my county, has very strong anti-radon building codes. I am sure there is a quantifiable amount of radon in my basement, but I don't really think about it too much. I probably should, but I don't.

Finally, I have not advocated for any policy on smoking in my time here. At least, I don't believe I have. In any event, I think that private businesses should be allowed to establish their own policies on smoking, and I think that government regulated spaces should be smoke-free, simply because ventilation and other mitigations cost tax money, while outright bans are cheap.

Look, everybody knows that smoking is pollution. Private businesses should be allowed to set whatever policy they would like, and public bodies should seek out the most cost effective way of reducing any sort of pollution in the most effective manner.

Simply put, my opinion on smoking is like most things, holistic.

As for your emphysema, Gaf... I sincerely am sorry.

[Fierce Critter]

99% of the people who have bitched to me about smoking eat out on a regular basis, or eat reese's like they're going out of style, or LIVE IN THE GREATER DETROIT AREA WHERE THE AIR IS SOOOO DAMN CLEAN TO BEGIN WITH, or they sleep longer than the recommended 6-8 hours, or the spend too much time online, or they have pets even though they have allergies, or they do any OTHER NUMBER of things that are just as unhealthy or even proven to be MORE unhealthy than cigarettes.

I couldn't turn around and tell you you're fat and to put down the big mac or to turn off your computer and take a fucking walk because you're just as useless as I seem to be.

None of this - NONE OF THIS - NOOOOONNNE OOOOOOFFFFF TTTTHHHIIISSS - puts anything into the atmosphere that forces you to also have to suffer the direct, physical effects of these people doing these things.

Next?

Come on. Nothing anyone says is ever going to change the fact that lighting up a cigarette puts something foreign into the air that anyone around it has to breathe in.

There are emissions laws in some areas on cars/industry/etc. There are rules about where animals can be taken. Some doctor's offices ask that you don't wear colognes or other strongly smelling "body additives" when you come in the office so you don't irritate the sensitivities of other patients.

There are all sorts of laws, and guidelines, and simple requests for common courtesy to those around you for all sorts of things. Why should smoking not be included in any of that?

Why is it so hard for smokers to realize this simple fact? The simple fact that what they do does not only affect them in a given area? Why is it o.k. for smokers to expect people everywhere to put up with this?

I simply don't understand the mentality behind insisting that others put up with your habit.

[creatureofthenyte]

If I go out somewhere, like a show or something, I don't want to come home smellin like a goddamn cigarette, I don't smoke.

But that ban that y'all are talkin about, we have that here.

It's nice to walk into a bar or restaraunt here, and not have to walk thru a thick plume of cigarette smoke that closely resembles the LA skyline.

[Angel of Death]

None of this - NONE OF THIS - NOOOOONNNE OOOOOOFFFFF TTTTHHHIIISSS - puts anything into the atmosphere that forces you to also have to suffer the direct, physical effects of these people doing these things.

Next?

Come on. Nothing anyone says is ever going to change the fact that lighting up a cigarette puts something foreign into the air that anyone around it has to breathe in.

There are emissions laws in some areas on cars/industry/etc. There are rules about where animals can be taken. Some doctor's offices ask that you don't wear colognes or other strongly smelling "body additives" when you come in the office so you don't irritate the sensitivities of other patients.

There are all sorts of laws, and guidelines, and simple requests for common courtesy to those around you for all sorts of things. Why should smoking not be included in any of that?

Why is it so hard for smokers to realize this simple fact? The simple fact that what they do does not only affect them in a given area? Why is it o.k. for smokers to expect people everywhere to put up with this?

I simply don't understand the mentality behind insisting that others put up with your habit.

We are not insisting you put up with it...unless your in a SMOKING area. Which REALLY comes down to the point that non-smokers are trying to BAN smoking areas. Thats not fair and is one sided. Non-smokers are insisting we put up with having to go outside or go home to smoke our cigarettes. How long until they try to tell us we can't even smoke at home, that they are outlawing cigarettes? If you don't want to be around it go somewhere non-smoking. Don't walk into somewhere it's ALLOWED and cause a scene over it....

[GothicRavenGoddess (3)]

It's medically impossible to be allergic to smoke (of any type). Smoke particles are too small for an allergic reaction. All smoke does is irritate existing conditions.

really? so its something else that causes my room mates husbands lungs to bleed when he get a whiff of smoke... I have to smoke outside because of this... so explain this to his doctors that told him that he is allergic to ANY kind of smoke.

all that aside... i think if a place has ALWAYS allowed smoking, its kinda dumb to prohibit it. Gonna turn away ALOT of ppl... now, if they have a room set aside, or something of that nature THAT'S INSIDE, AND DOESN'T MAKE YOU RE-PAY COVER then that should be okay... but to force ppl outside to feed their addiction, is a little rediculous. I could see if it was a new building, and that was the rules to begin with... but to just change? STUPID! but i am bias... i am a smoker.. lol

[amalthea23]

We've had this for a few years in NY and it's absolutely fantastic. I can actually go out now without ending up on antibiotics for the following two weeks. We haven't had issues with bars or restaurants shutting down because so many people who otherwise stayed home due to the fumes can go out now, and the smokers haven't stayed away either, they've largely just adjusted.

[SaGa]

if city club became a non-smoking establishment whould people stop going or pay for cover fee 5 times just to get a cig in

bars i can see it being a problem turning into non-smoking. make some of them turn non smoking, but not all of them, when you drink you want to smoke if your a smoker, usually. and thats like prohibiting one evil while still selling a bigger evil. also as mentioned places with a cover fee. concerts and what not. you cant leave or you wasted good money on nothing

im not dissing the side of the non-smoker either, you have a valid point. and yes there should be some respect when it comes to people who smoke when present with non-smokers. but those who choose to smoke have a say and there is a lot of smokers out there. theres resturants with no smoking and some that allow it. thats a balance.. banning it is just un balanced

[SaGa]

*lights up a cig outside after small rant*

[amalthea23]

Why would you have to pay the cover over and over? Around here, when you go in anywhere, you get stamped, or noticed. If you need to leave to smoke, you do, and you go right back in. You don't pay again, that's insane.

[SaGa]

its different with each venue it seems. some allow no re-entry without paying. some stamp and check.

believe me i wish city club allowed re-entry. how many times i had to leave cause someone got depressed and stormed out of the club

[GothicRavenGoddess (3)]

I have heard that City Club does that, even tho you have the silly words written on your hand (if over 21)... mine still says "sha"(?) and i have freakin washed sense Saturday night, too... its a wonder its not on my face somewhere....

anyways... sorry bout that.... i know that some places do, when its just a hand written thing, and not something that they had ordered specifically for that establishment... which i think that City Club should do... but yeah. i think its a bit ridiculous to have to pay cover to re-enter a place, no matter what your reason for leaving is...

[Msterbeau]

This the real reason there should be a smoking ban in public places:

"Bellows-driven instruments – such as the accordion, concertina, melodeon and Uilleann (or Irish) bagpipes – reportedly need less frequent cleaning and maintenance as a result of the Irish smoking ban."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking_ban

Ok... Wiki summarizes all the sides of this issue pretty well, IMO. While the economic arguments appear to go both ways, the evidence that smoking is harmful is overwhelming.

[phee]

It could even be just a preference.... some businesses won't serve you without shoes or shirts... I really don't see too much difference here.

[Msterbeau]

It could even be just a preference.... some businesses won't serve you without shoes or shirts... I really don't see too much difference here.

If you read the Wiki article, they describe a number of different proposals and ideas that have been made with respect to tax penalties or incentives but ultimately leaving the choice up to the establishments. All those have good points and bad ones...

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

really? so its something else that causes my room mates husbands lungs to bleed when he get a whiff of smoke... I have to smoke outside because of this... so explain this to his doctors that told him that he is allergic to ANY kind of smoke.

all that aside... i think if a place has ALWAYS allowed smoking, its kinda dumb to prohibit it. Gonna turn away ALOT of ppl... now, if they have a room set aside, or something of that nature THAT'S INSIDE, AND DOESN'T MAKE YOU RE-PAY COVER then that should be okay... but to force ppl outside to feed their addiction, is a little rediculous. I could see if it was a new building, and that was the rules to begin with... but to just change? STUPID! but i am bias... i am a smoker.. lol

Smoke is an irritant. Honestly, if your friend's lungs are bleeding when he comes into contact with smoke.. something is really really wrong. Many doctors will tell you that you are allergic to smoke... because it's easyer to understand than and is less work than finding out and explaining whats really wrong. Most people that have "allergic" reactions to smoke of all kinds.. are more than likely having reactions to the mold spoors in smoke or are irritating an existing condition.

No one can be allergic to smoke

MedHelp

People are not allergic to smoke. Smoke is not an allergen, but it is definitely an irritant.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

al·ler·gen –noun

any substance, often a protein, that induces an allergy: common allergens include pollen, grasses, dust, and some medications.

smoke –noun

1. the visible vapor and gases given off by a burning or smoldering substance, esp. the gray, brown, or blackish mixture of gases and suspended carbon particles resulting from the combustion of wood, peat, coal, or other organic matter.

Or in simple terms.. smoke is Carbon. You cant be allergic to carbon and be alive.

[amalthea23]

I've had the bleeding issue with smoke. Last time I was exposed, I was blowing blood for a couple of hours. And yes, something is terribly wrong, however, unless someone is constantly blowing irritants my way, I'm perfectly able to go and see a show or hit up a club every few months without ending up infected for weeks. Just because the average person isn't bleeding or showing any other obvious signs of trauma from said irritant, doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea to fill a room up with it and breathe it in for a few hours.

[Msterbeau]

So smoke is only carbon?

From the US Dept. for Health and Human Services:

The National Toxicology Program estimates that at least 250 chemicals in secondhand smoke are known to be toxic or carcinogenic (cancer causing).

Secondhand smoke contains a number of poisonous gases and chemicals, including hydrogen cyanide (used in chemical weapons), carbon monoxide (found in car exhaust), butane (used in lighter fluid), ammonia (used in household cleaners), and toluene (found in paint thinners).

Some of the toxic metals contained in secondhand smoke include arsenic (used in pesticides), lead (formerly found in paint), chromium (used to make steel), and cadmium (used to make batteries).

There are more than 50 cancer-causing chemicals in secondhand smoke that fall into different chemical classes, including:

o Polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) (such as Benzo[a]pyrene)

o N-Nitrosamines (such as tobacco-specific nitrosamines)

o Aromatic amines (such as 4-aminobiphenyl)

o Aldehydes (such as formaldehyde)

o Miscellaneous organic chemicals (such as benzene and vinyl chloride) and

o Inorganic compounds (such as those containing metals like arsenic, beryllium, cadmium, lead, nickel and radioactive polonium-210).

Eleven compounds in tobacco smoke (2-naphthylamine, 4-aminobiphenyl, benzene, vinyl chloride, ethylene oxide, arsenic, beryllium, nickel compounds, chromium, cadmium and polonium-210) have been identified by the International Agency for Research on Cancer as Group 1 (known human carcinogen) carcinogens.

Secondhand smoke has been designated as a known human carcinogen (cancer-causing agent) by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, National Toxicology Program and the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC). The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health has concluded that secondhand smoke is an occupational carcinogen.

Secondhand smoke is composed of sidestream smoke (the smoke released from the burning end of a cigarette) and exhaled mainstream smoke (the smoke exhaled by the smoker). Because sidestream smoke is generated at lower temperatures and under different conditions than mainstream smoke, it contains higher concentrations of many of the toxins found in inhaled cigarette smoke.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Those are chemicals in the smoke. Not the smoke. I know, it's splitting hairs.. but it's the reality of it.

Most of those chemicals are also in leaves in the fall. I have seen people cough and gag at the slightest smell of a cig.. and then talk about how much they love the smell of burning leaves in the fall.

It's about smell, not health.

BTW. Some known Class 1 Carcenigens:

Estrogen

Oral Birth Control

Silica (Sand)

Wood Dust

Salted Fish

Vinyl

Sun light

Beef

Pork

Wanna ban those too?

For those coughing up blood... You need to see a Doctor. ASAP. You have a major medical problem that is going to kill you while you are young.

[amalthea23]

For those coughing up blood... You need to see a Doctor. ASAP. You have a major medical problem that is going to kill you while you are young.

No kidding?

I've been going regularly to several hundred docs for over 30 years, but that doesn't negate the fact that it totally sucks to be trapped at home because other people feel the need to blow smoke AND chemicals in the smoke, in my face. I'd outlaw the rest if any of them were blown in my face by other people, sure. Most clubs I've been to though don't have salted fish flying through the air.