Whirlpool Suspends 39 Workers, Says They Lied About Smoking

[freydis]

Yes, the company... Whirlpool in this case... is charing $500 more a year for the premium... where does it say that they pass that cash on to the insurance company? It says they do it as part of thier own internal "Wellness" program. No where does it say that they are being charged more for smoking employees.

More employers requiring tobacco users to pay higher premiums

You missed the part I quoted....state laws mandate that the extra money charged goes toward health insurance costs for the company. Basically, the company benefits because they pay less out of their own coffers toward the premium. Usually, when you have company insurance, the company pays part, you pay part. So health insurance *does* cost the company per employee. So, when premiums go up every year, unless they pass the cost on to the employee (which they dont always do) it costs the employer *more*. By making smokers cover some of that cost, the premiums cost the company less. This is the company being cheap, and trying to bring premiums down.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I read that. I noticed there is not an S on the end of the word state. Which, to me, means one state... and all I can find on the subject is the fact that Minnesota does infact have that law and hints that a hand full of other do. Thats called spin.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Well a date is nigh impossible...

..but... how would a group of people who did not share HONESTLY kill mammoths...

...Pyramids...Aqueducts...Temples...invent MATH...

Or do you think these things are all lie?

excuse me? Your not making sense. I'm not sure of the logic.

Are you saying that the ancients could not have done these great works if they ever told lies?

Truthfulness. He will never willingly tolerate an untruth, but will hate it as much as he loves truth. ... And is there anything more closely connected with wisdom than truth? - Plato

Why would Plato write something like that if untruths did not exist?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Petty!!!!! &

I'm not the one that brought it up, nor am I the one who is being obtuse.

[Rev.Reverence]

excuse me? Your not making sense. I'm not sure of the logic.

Are you saying that the ancients could not have done these great works if they ever told lies?

Why would Plato write something like that if untruths did not exist?

I say if I tell you 'this block of stone is 1 cubit' and it is not, how are you going to build a wall?

I never said that untruth did not EXIST.....

...I said, Truth was the FOUNDATION...

am I clear?

[Rev.Reverence]

I'm not the one that brought it up, nor am I the one who is being obtuse.

ob·tuse Audio Help /əbˈtus, -ˈtyus/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uhb-toos, -tyoos] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective

1. not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.

2. not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form.

3. (of a leaf, petal, etc.) rounded at the extremity.

4. indistinctly felt or perceived, as pain or sound.

....and just what the fuck are you saying here???

[TygerLili]

They signed false doccuments, bottom line. They shouldn't have lied. It doesn't matter if people have gotten away with this sort of thing in the past. That doesn't make it right, or legal.

If an employer is providing insurance, then they get to decide what premiums the workers pay. Those workers should have counted themselves as lucky to even have a full-time job with insurance coverage, considering how shaky our economy is right now. More and more companies are hiring part-time or contract employees so they don't have to provide insurance coverage.

If they didn't like the insurance policy their company provided, they could have tried to find individual coverage more to their liking.

[Shade Everdark]

Topics like this make me want to join up for the revolution, not against our government, but against corporate control.

Others have expressed the opinion that it didn't matter what it was that these employees signed--they signed it, and they are beholden to honor it, and the fact that they lied is the paramount wrong here.

Allow me to express the antipodal position--I don't care whether they lied about it or not, the fact that they were had to sign it in order to work at the damn plant is ridiculous in the extreme. A corporation, whether they provide group insurance or not, has no business telling its employees what kind of lifestyle to lead. To insist otherwise, which is quite honestly what's happening in this thread, is to advocate intrusive corporate control of our lives.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

ob·tuse Audio Help /əbˈtus, -ˈtyus/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uhb-toos, -tyoos] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective

1. not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.

2. not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form.

3. (of a leaf, petal, etc.) rounded at the extremity.

4. indistinctly felt or perceived, as pain or sound.

....and just what the fuck are you saying here???

That your statement is so broad that I can't find it's relevance. Perhaps I could have found a better word. I meant no insult and apologize if insult was taken.

[Rev.Reverence]

Topics like this make me want to join up for the revolution, not against our government, but against corporate control.

Others have expressed the opinion that it didn't matter what it was that these employees signed--they signed it, and they are beholden to honor it, and the fact that they lied is the paramount wrong here.

Allow me to express the antipodal position--I don't care whether they lied about it or not, the fact that they were had to sign it in order to work at the damn plant is ridiculous in the extreme. A corporation, whether they provide group insurance or not, has no business telling its employees what kind of lifestyle to lead. To insist otherwise, which is quite honestly what's happening in this thread, is to advocate intrusive corporate control of our lives.

I agree that the 'corps' are wrong... that does not make lying any less wrong...

...and I don't care to think which is 'wronger'.... I hate conundrums...

also 'antipodal' great word man....

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I say if I tell you 'this block of stone is 1 cubit' and it is not, how are you going to build a wall?

I never said that untruth did not EXIST.....

...I said, Truth was the FOUNDATION...

am I clear?

And it's not now?

I'm pretty sure if you go on a construction sight to work... and someone says "You need to put 24 inch block here..." They are not going to lie about it.

Lies have existed since the exact moment that people discovered the concept of Truth.

Which begs the qeustion... what was your point sopposed to be?

[Rev.Reverence]

That your statement is so broad that I can't find it's relevance. Perhaps I could have found a better word. I meant no insult and apologize if insult was taken.

Cool.

...and if I am so broad it is because it WAS a broad statement, and undeniably rooted in semantics millennia old...

..was this statement clearer?

I say if I tell you 'this block of stone is 1 cubit' and it is not, how are you going to build a wall?

I never said that untruth did not EXIST.....

...I said, Truth was the FOUNDATION...

If not lets continue from there, eh?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Topics like this make me want to join up for the revolution, not against our government, but against corporate control.

Others have expressed the opinion that it didn't matter what it was that these employees signed--they signed it, and they are beholden to honor it, and the fact that they lied is the paramount wrong here.

Allow me to express the antipodal position--I don't care whether they lied about it or not, the fact that they were had to sign it in order to work at the damn plant is ridiculous in the extreme. A corporation, whether they provide group insurance or not, has no business telling its employees what kind of lifestyle to lead. To insist otherwise, which is quite honestly what's happening in this thread, is to advocate intrusive corporate control of our lives.

Your not antipodal to me on this.

[Rev.Reverence]

And it's not now?

I'm pretty sure if you go on a construction sight to work... and someone says "You need to put 24 inch block here..." They are not going to lie about it.

Lies have existed since the exact moment that people discovered the concept of Truth.

Which begs the qeustion... what was your point sopposed to be?

That truth is NECESSARY

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Ahh.

The Truth is necessary. Sometimes it is necessary to hide it. Others to bend it.

The Truth is necessary, it is not required.

[Rev.Reverence]

Ahh.

The Truth is necessary. Sometimes it is necessary to hide it. Others to bend it.

The Truth is necessary, it is not required.

I don't see where it is better to lie...

[freydis]

Topics like this make me want to join up for the revolution, not against our government, but against corporate control.

Others have expressed the opinion that it didn't matter what it was that these employees signed--they signed it, and they are beholden to honor it, and the fact that they lied is the paramount wrong here.

Allow me to express the antipodal position--I don't care whether they lied about it or not, the fact that they were had to sign it in order to work at the damn plant is ridiculous in the extreme. A corporation, whether they provide group insurance or not, has no business telling its employees what kind of lifestyle to lead. To insist otherwise, which is quite honestly what's happening in this thread, is to advocate intrusive corporate control of our lives.

I guess I just don't get it.

Car insurers charge different prices according to what car you drive, where you live, and your driving record.

Life insurance companies charge different prices according to your age, your medical history, and your habits.

Private health insurers charge different prices according to your medical history, age, (and if i recall correctly, some private insurers charge more if you admit to smoking. I think my brother ran into this) and habits.

How is this different?

[Onyx]

To clarify.

I'm not saying I approve of them lying.

I am saying I disapprove of the initial requirements.

As a non-smoking fat chick, I'd say it'd be just as legitimate to require people to also never eat at McDonald's.

That is a good point. It's already happening with weight issues for some companies.

My insurance company (which I participate in through my employer) is charging anyone a higher fee if they fail their health assessment for any reason that they consider a preventable condition (high BMI, smoking).

What they did was offer us all a "discount" if we complete a free health assessment by one of their nurses at the beginning of the year. What ended up happening is it wasn't a discount at all, but the same rate we always paid, and those who either didn't agree to be examined or failed the examination were charged a higher premium.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Wrong question.

You should not be asking "How is this different?"

You should be ask "How is this right?"

Freedom goes away when you stop fighting for it. I am not cool with giving away my Freedom so you get better car insurance. I should not have to sign a paper that gives anyone power over me just to get a job. Nor should you have to. Or anyone else.

Some of the same people that complain that the current administation is taking away your rights... are advocating that we give our rights away.

Sometimes you have to lie to to keep that freedom. You really think that everyone that swore an oath to the USSR really meant it? Were the people running the safe houses along the underground railroad were completly truthfull to everyone around them?

And more to the point... Have you really read the crap on your resume?

[Shade Everdark]

Wrong question.

You should not be asking "How is this different?"

You should be ask "How is this right?"

Freedom goes away when you stop fighting for it. I am not cool with giving away my Freedom so you get better car insurance. I should not have to sign a paper that gives anyone power over me just to get a job. Nor should you have to. Or anyone else.

Some of the same people that complain that the current administation is taking away your rights... are advocating that we give our rights away.

Sometimes you have to lie to to keep that freedom. You really think that everyone that swore an oath to the USSR really meant it? Were the people running the safe houses along the underground railroad were completly truthfull to everyone around them?

And more to the point... Have you really read the crap on your resume?

Or, from a different perspective.

How many people out there do you honestly think reads all the EULAs (End User License Agreements) they come across?

[Rev.Reverence]

Wrong question.

You should not be asking "How is this different?"

You should be ask "How is this right?"

Freedom goes away when you stop fighting for it. I am not cool with giving away my Freedom so you get better car insurance. I should not have to sign a paper that gives anyone power over me just to get a job. Nor should you have to. Or anyone else.

Some of the same people that complain that the current administation is taking away your rights... are advocating that we give our rights away.

Sometimes you have to lie to to keep that freedom. You really think that everyone that swore an oath to the USSR really meant it? Were the people running the safe houses along the underground railroad were completly truthfull to everyone around them?

And more to the point... Have you really read the crap on your resume?

How can you spew Christian dogma and then say that?

Does GOD ( or your concept of IT ) tell you to LIE?

(what does a resume have to do with it?)

[freydis]

Wrong question.

You should not be asking "How is this different?"

You should be ask "How is this right?"

The car insurance company is in it to make money. It makes sense for person A to have lower premiums if they live in an area where theft is uncommon, and they have a spotless driving record, and that person B who lives in an area that cars get stolen all the time and they have 4 speeding tickets has to pay more. It's business, it has absoloutely nothing to do with freedom. You have the freedom to have *no* car insurance if you don't want to pay for it, or to have PL&PD instead of collision coverage. I really don't see any difference here.

Freedom goes away when you stop fighting for it. I am not cool with giving away my Freedom so you get better car insurance.

If they don't want to pay a higher insurance premium, they have the option of NOT going with their work insurance, and getting private insurance. No one's freedoms are at stake here. They are not *entitled* to insurance, nor are they entitled to cheap insurance. Everyone pays. It's a service like any other.

I should not have to sign a paper that gives anyone power over me just to get a job. Nor should you have to. Or anyone else.

First, this isnt something that says whether they can work or not. It simply says: do you smoke? If you do, you're paying 42 dollars more for your insurance per month. It was their choice to lie; anything your employer asks you to sign, especially something that determines insurance eligibility, better be true. In this case specifically, it amounts to fraud, and therefore they sacrifice their jobs. Many states are at-will employment states, too. I think people are blowing this way out of proportion.

Some of the same people that complain that the current administation is taking away your rights... are advocating that we give our rights away.

Sometimes you have to lie to to keep that freedom. You really think that everyone that swore an oath to the USSR really meant it? Were the people running the safe houses along the underground railroad were completly truthfull to everyone around them?

And more to the point... Have you really read the crap on your resume?

I don't put anything on my resume that isnt the truth. In all cases, if you put something blatantly false on your resume, don't expect to keep your job if theyre verifying past employers and schools.

This has nothing to do with freedom. It's simply about a company passing along expenses to their employees. Don't like it? Don't work there, or get your own insurance. Insurance is the one industry that makes its money off our living habits---they take a gamble that you'll never (or rarely) have to utilise their services. So--people that are more likely (often through their own lifestyle choices) to use those services, are gonna pay more. Before you speed, or run that red light, don't you ever think about how much your premium would go up if you were caught?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

How can you spew Christian dogma and then say that?

Does GOD ( or your concept of IT ) tell you to LIE?

(what does a resume have to do with it?)

1. I'm not a Christian, but I do believe in God and I share some of their beliefs. Though, I honest;y don't remember spewing their dogma any more than I spew Greek philosophy or Buddhist dogma.

2. I'm not God, I am allowed my human imperfections.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

The car insurance company is in it to make money. It makes sense for person A to have lower premiums if they live in an area where theft is uncommon, and they have a spotless driving record, and that person B who lives in an area that cars get stolen all the time and they have 4 speeding tickets has to pay more. It's business, it has absoloutely nothing to do with freedom. You have the freedom to have *no* car insurance if you don't want to pay for it, or to have PL&PD instead of collision coverage. I really don't see any difference here.

If they don't want to pay a higher insurance premium, they have the option of NOT going with their work insurance, and getting private insurance. No one's freedoms are at stake here. They are not *entitled* to insurance, nor are they entitled to cheap insurance. Everyone pays. It's a service like any other.

First, this isnt something that says whether they can work or not. It simply says: do you smoke? If you do, you're paying 42 dollars more for your insurance per month. It was their choice to lie; anything your employer asks you to sign, especially something that determines insurance eligibility, better be true. In this case specifically, it amounts to fraud, and therefore they sacrifice their jobs. Many states are at-will employment states, too. I think people are blowing this way out of proportion.

I don't put anything on my resume that isnt the truth. In all cases, if you put something blatantly false on your resume, don't expect to keep your job if theyre verifying past employers and schools.

This has nothing to do with freedom. It's simply about a company passing along expenses to their employees. Don't like it? Don't work there, or get your own insurance. Insurance is the one industry that makes its money off our living habits---they take a gamble that you'll never (or rarely) have to utilise their services. So--people that are more likely (often through their own lifestyle choices) to use those services, are gonna pay more. Before you speed, or run that red light, don't you ever think about how much your premium would go up if you were caught?

nothing to do with freedom.. your right. Let the corperations make you jump through any hoop they feel like.

[freydis]

nothing to do with freedom.. your right. Let the corperations make you jump through any hoop they feel like.

Honestly, I still don't get it.

Are you advocating socialism or communism?

Seriously. A company's purpose is to generate profit. Ergo, if something costs them money, they're going to find a way to lower cost.

You, as a consumer, have the right to buy something else if you don't like what they're charging.

An insurance company is a company that stakes a bet on you not needing them. You pay them money just in case you do need them.

If you engage in habits that raise your probability of needing their services, they CHARGE MORE.

It's a business like any other.

Pay it, or find someone else that's more to your liking.

Unless you're aiming at a philosophical discussion of "freedom" in a capitalist nation.....