Supreme Court says Americans have right to guns

[phee]

Our gun culture...

80 million known gun owners, 200 million known guns...

More people die on our highways than by our guns. We are the most armed nation on the history of the planet.

And we have more handgun deaths per capita then any nation on the planet.... kind of my point

[ttogreh]

Yes, criminal gun use kills.

Criminal gun use is fantastically miniscule compared to legal gun use, and legal use of cars kills more people than criminal gun use.

The numbers quite frankly, can be played any way you'd like them. Taking them in to context, perhaps if we stopped the moronic drug war, a war that simply makes a commercial product worth thousand upon thousands of times its real value while not putting any quantifiable dent in its consumption...

We might start having fewer handgun deaths.

[phee]

Yes, criminal gun use kills.

Criminal gun use is fantastically miniscule compared to legal gun use, and legal use of cars kills more people than criminal gun use.

The numbers quite frankly, can be played any way you'd like them. Taking them in to context, perhaps if we stopped the moronic drug war, a war that simply makes a commercial product worth thousand upon thousands of times its real value while not putting any quantifiable dent in its consumption...

We might start having fewer handgun deaths.

Hence why I don't blame the guns.... it is the culture

[Fin]

More people die on our highways than by our guns. We are the most armed nation on the history of the planet.

True--but wouldn't you think it logical that in a country where guns & bullets were outlawed entirely, the number of gun-related fatalities would decrease?

[ttogreh]

Please, do not mix the terms "gun culture" and plain old "culture". Our "gun culture" is populated mainly with sportsmen, firearms enthusiasts, veterans, soldiers, police officers and security professionals... and a few bad apples.

Our "culture" is populated with EVERYONE, including drug dealers, who are part of the "gun culture", as well. If you want to blame our culture... fine. I am right with you. Do NOT blame the "gun culture". For the overwhelming majority of its members, criminal gun use is anathema.

[ttogreh]

Fin, in places like Chicago and the District of Columbia, that logic is most evidently false.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

The National Guard would be the closest thing to the modern "state militia" they were most likely referring to at the time.

Troy,

That is not the accepted definition by a majority. That is a talking point, or arguing point, of the anti-gun movement. The 2nd amendment rights activists, militia members, NRA members and a good percentage of gun owners do not accept that definition at all.

[Fin]

Fin, in places like Chicago and the District of Columbia, that logic is most evidently false.

No no, Ttogreh--I mean a complete nationwide ban, not a small, regional ban where someone can drive to the next town, purchase a firearm, & then return with it.

Would you suspect that in such a rhetorical nation that gun-related injuries & deaths would decline?

[Goth Brooks]

Troy,

That is not the accepted definition by a majority. That is a talking point, or arguing point, of the anti-gun movement. The 2nd amendment rights activists, militia members, NRA members and a good percentage of gun owners do not accept that definition at all.

The Militia Act of 1903 organized the various state militias into the present National Guard system.

Come again?

The National Guard and Air National Guard are the direct descendants of the state militias.

However, the 2nd amendment states:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Why do people read this and think that "People" means the government (militia) in some way?

Read the rest of the Constitution and show me where any use of the word "Person/People" indicates the government as opposed to a private citizen.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Gothbrooks...

What you are saying does not counter what I am saying. What the government did in 1903 was try to take away one of our rights without looking like they were. As soon as those groups became Government controlled... they stopped being militias. And the People formed new Militias.

UNITED STATES CODE

Title 10, Subtitle A, Part I, Chapter 13, § 311

Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are -

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

[n0Mad]

No no, Ttogreh--I mean a complete nationwide ban, not a small, regional ban where someone can drive to the next town, purchase a firearm, & then return with it.

Would you suspect that in such a rhetorical nation that gun-related injuries & deaths would decline?

I have two case studies for you: the UK and Australia. Two island nations so it's even harder to smuggle in guns. Yet, when both countries completely banned firearms, all crime including gun crime went up. Conversely, every state in the US that has passed "shall issue" carry laws, crime and especially violent crime has immediately and consistently gone down. Read that book I linked to and you will find your facts.

Here's another interesting point: The four justices with dissenting opinions, all four of them voted for eminent domain. You know, that pesky ruling where if the government decides your privately owned land would serve the community better as a Wal-Mart then the government can seize your land. The Second Amendment was created so the citizens can protect themselves against a tyrannical government. A great way to keep the government from seizing your land is with firearms, yet four of the justices who voted in favor of the government taking your land were the only four who voted against the means to protect yourself from that. Hmmm ...

Discuss.

[Shade Everdark]

There is a definition of the word 'militia', somewhat archaic in today's world, that states that a 'militia' is the entire body of people eligible by law for military service. Don't have to be enlisted, don't have to be part of the armed forces or the reserves or the national guard. You just have to be old enough to legally serve.

It seems to me that the drafters of the Constitution and Bill of Rights sort of had this definition in mind when they drew up the 2nd Amendment. Remember, 'the People' includes everyone, children, the old and infirm, government officials, everyone. The militia, here, would mean anyone who isn't part of the governmental machine who is old enough to be part of the army.

Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Hence the US Code I posted above.

[Shade Everdark]

Hence the US Code I posted above.

Sorry, missed that part of it.

[n0Mad]

Very well put Shade. Seems cut and dried to me too.

[Goth Brooks]

Gothbrooks...

What you are saying does not counter what I am saying. What the government did in 1903 was try to take away one of our rights without looking like they were. As soon as those groups became Government controlled... they stopped being militias. And the People formed new Militias.

UNITED STATES CODE

Title 10, Subtitle A, Part I, Chapter 13, § 311

Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are -

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

Except that state militias have ALWAYS been under government control. That control was just moved to one central location.

Besides, it's been historically proven that the militias were a failure and the national guard system was the only way of making them worth a damn. War of 1812 should be enough proof there. But we're getting off point, maybe?

I believe the private citizen has the right to bear any object that he can use as a weapon in defense of his private property and his country, that's what I believe the 2nd amendment means.

[jynxxxedangel]

*cleaning my sawed-off 12 and my Kimber .380 police special as I type*

No one will take this cold steel away from me, EVER.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Except that state militias have ALWAYS been under government control. That control was just moved to one central location.

Besides, it's been historically proven that the militias were a failure and the national guard system was the only way of making them worth a damn. War of 1812 should be enough proof there. But we're getting off point, maybe?

I believe the private citizen has the right to bear any object that he can use as a weapon in defense of his private property and his country, that's what I believe the 2nd amendment means.

Excuse me? Explain how we won the Revolutionary War if history shows militia to be a failure.

The highest number to which a standing army can be carried in any country does not exceed one hundredth part of the souls, or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This portion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Besides the advantage of being armed, it forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. The governments of Europe are afraid to trust the people with arms. If they did, the people would surely shake off the yoke of tyranny, as America did. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors."- (James Madison, Source I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789)

[jynxxxedangel]

Four small words every true American should remember:

DON'T TREAD ON ME

[n0Mad]

[Goth Brooks]

Excuse me? Explain how we won the Revolutionary War if history shows militia to be a failure.

1. Continental Army

2. French training

3. French declaring war against England

Explain how we lost Detroit, and had the White House burned if the militias were so good.

It was the organized military of 1812 that saved face for the US.

[Rev.Reverence]

But that is not true for other contries that have less guns.... I don't think honestly that guns are the problem, its "Gun Culture" if you know what I mean?

I would agree whole heartedly...

..a lack of general value for life....

[phee]

I would agree whole heartedly...

..a lack of general value for life....

Yes.. thats it.... in as nutshell apathy, and tools.... not the tools fault but they make it easier... Look at the "wild west"

[Rev.Reverence]

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Why do people read this and think that "People" means the government (militia) in some way?

Read the rest of the Constitution and show me where any use of the word "Person/People" indicates the government as opposed to a private citizen.

*WHOOT! WHOOT!*

[Rev.Reverence]

Yes.. thats it.... in as nutshell apathy, and tools.... not the tools fault but they make it easier... Look at the "wild west"

Some say that if you make it manditory to hunt/skin/cook/eat an animal in the early teens will teach the VALUE OF LIFE.