Anti-smoking law in Michigan?

[Morbid Side]

We have our bonding smoking circle and if you do not want to be apart of it then stay the fuck out. I have chatted with more interesting people while smoking then I have when not smoking on public property and or in bar/clubs. I presume it should be up to the business owners, but the no smoking ban in public establishments seems to work just fine out here in California. I don't know how well it will go over in the Big Mit though. Geez, there is enough pollution in the air here in the big cities that outweights smoking any day.

[Hellion]

What kills me is when a non smoker hangs out in the smoking section of a restaurant and bitches about it.

it works best when there are separate rooms one for smoking and one for not,I have seen several places like that.

and yes welding smoke is much more deadly than cigarette smoke.

[Rev.Reverence]

I SEE A PATTERN HERE...Der Nister HAS SO ELOQUENTLY AND POIGNANTLY PICKED OUT THE WORDS...I HIGHLIGHTED THE ONES THAT APLLY IN A MULTIFACETED MANNER.

The green line is only used sometimes...

I love the whole post really but I just wanted to cut it up...to show yous all how I saw it for a moment.

I understand what you are saying but what I am saying is this - people in our government are trying to terminate our right(s) to smoke and that is why I posted what I posted. They are not doing it for your health or your child's health but to control and do away with things they do not like.

That is wrong - the politicians need to stop making laws that tell adults how to live and they need to start fixing this messed up country.

Ok let's all just agree that all adults are adults right? We are expected to act a certain way in public and we can all agree on that. So, instead of making more 'laws' why can't it just be that there can be places for smokers and places for non smokers?

It should be that simple.

No new laws - just common sense.

I don't care for this or that and I stay away. Someone doesn't like that I smoke so we don't spend time together.

Problem solved.

[odims_sphere]

I understand what you are saying but what I am saying is this - people in our government are trying to terminate our right to smoke and that is why I posted what I posted. They are not doing it for your health or your child's health but to control and do away with things they do not like.

I find it HILARIOUS that a smokers "right" to smoke seems to outweigh a non-smokers "right" to breathe clean air.

Bottom line is that in a public area my not smoking has no effect on you, where as your smoking puts something into the air that was not there before and very much so has a direct and measurable effect on me.

In your home, your car, hey that's your space.

In a bar that chooses to allow it, that's their choice.

In a public park where I take my kids to play, that's our space. I should not be forced to deal with your inability to control your addictions. It's not my fault you have no self control.

disclaimer: "You", and "your" is used in the generic smoker sense, not meant directly toward Der Nister personally.

[odims_sphere]

What kills me is when a non smoker hangs out in the smoking section of a restaurant and bitches about it.

it works best when there are separate rooms one for smoking and one for not,I have seen several places like that.

and yes welding smoke is much more deadly than cigarette smoke.

What kills me is when a smoker hangs out in a non-smoking section of a restaurant and bitches that his rights are being infringed upon when he's told to put out his cigarette.

and yes there is a ban on welding in public places as well.

[Pandora]

They can ban smoking in "public" places when they ban drinking in "public" places. Drunk idiots ruining the atmosphere suck!

I'm a polite smoker, I don't smoke around anyone who doesn't like it. If they tell me that is.

And Masturbating in public is illegal??? Oh shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Fin]

I find it HILARIOUS that a smokers "right" to smoke seems to outweigh a non-smokers "right" to breathe clean air.

Bottom line is that in a public area my not smoking has no effect on you, where as your smoking puts something into the air that was not there before and very much so has a direct and measurable effect on me.

Furthermore, there is no "right" to smoke in the strictest sense. What I alluded to above was there is no provision in the Constitution that protects any such "right." The easiest way to define it would be a state or locally regulated tolerance of tobacco sale & use.

The use of legal substances such as liquor & prescription medications are regulated (eg. not for consumption in public locales, use of proper containers, etc). I'm not sure if anyone has made a compelling argument as to why tobacco products should be treated any differently than other legal & regulated substances such as these.

[SaGa]

dennys tried to ban smoking, it didnt fly, specially for those who stay 20 minutes after to smoke and chat when its not busy. yes its impossing our freedoms. but amarica isnt what people think it is. the income tax for example was to fund world war 1 i believe, or was it 2 . but it still stayed after. the goverment rarely listens to the public on larger matters. thinking that we are stupid and of course lets point out 1984 and big brother here. how many iraq games came out since the war? but thats another subject. i think everyone knows our freedoms are going one at a time. but without a will to gather and stop it, nothing will change. and with this population democracy is put to the sidelines

[sass_in_the_pants]

I would LOVE to see a ban on smoking outdoors.

I have done more than a few Detroit city clean-ups, and I distinctly recall picking up HUNDREDS of cigarette butts from the grass in the park, sidewalks, public squares.

The last time I did it...I remember there was this woman watching me, smoking her cigarette, and watching me, she watched me for ten minutes, pick up cigarette butt after cigarette butt, and then she looked RIGHT at me, and threw hers on the ground.

And I got up off the ground and yelled 'Are you FUCKING KIDDING ME RIGHT NOW? WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?'

I started going towards her and I was screaming like a crazy woman the whole time 'Were you NOT watching me for the last ten minutes? Did you not see me pick up fifty cigarette butts? Couldn't you have used the FUCKING ASHTRAY right there?'

And the bitch had the nerve to say to me 'This is your JOB, honey. Don't complain about it.'

That was the last straw. 'No it's not bitch! I'm an accountant! I do THIS FOR FUN!' (In retrospect, that probably made me seem crazier, but I'm not a terribly clever person in the heat of the moment)

By then, the other volunteers were all tugging at me saying things like 'Um, Sass, you could use some water. How about some water? Or a cookie? I think we have cookies over there. You could you definitely use a cookie'

Grrr.

I am in no way suggesting this horrible nasty witch of a woman is a typical smoker. I know many who put it out on the ground, and then throw the butt in the trash can. Then again, judging by how many I picked up off the ground, many don't.

So, all of this is just to say - I would unquestionably approve a ban on smoking in outdoor and common areas just because SOMEONE has to come clean up afterwards, and it's probably gonna be me.

[phee]

+1 to Odims posts

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Eh--to which Constitutional right are you referring?

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

9th Amendment

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

14th Amendment

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

[phee]

9th Amendment

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

14th Amendment

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Prohibiting smoking outright would definitly break that....

Smoking in say a park around people who don't want to breath it, the smokers at that point are breaking the nonsmokers rights

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

My point is... if the 14th can be used to make Abortion legal... it can be used to keep smoking legal.

[phee]

My point is... if the 14th can be used to make Abortion legal... it can be used to keep smoking legal.

Agreed....

Banning smoking out and out is a bad idea IMO...

In certain areas making it illegal is a good idea IMO

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Prohibiting smoking outright would definitly break that....

Smoking in say a park around people who don't want to breath it, the smokers at that point are breaking the nonsmokers rights

Ahh... You have some real scientific evidence that second hand smoke is actually bad for you? I mean... you can sight some study that says without doubt that second hand smoke is as bad as some people like to say? Last I checked... there were none. Many that said "Maybe" but non that said "Yes". Also last I checked... Reasonable Doubt was part of our laws, not reasonable suspicion.

[Reaper]

I dislike smoking. But I wouldn't force out smokers just because of that. I am pretty healthy and haven't noticed any effects from being around smoke at the club. Sure, coming out of that place smelling like a sweaty cigarette butt is gross, but if smoking were banned, most of the people wouldn't be going into the club then it would seem like City Club opened on a Thanksgiving night where hardly anyone showed up.

[phee]

Ahh... You have some real scientific evidence that second hand smoke is actually bad for you? I mean... you can sight some study that says without doubt that second hand smoke is as bad as some people like to say? Last I checked... there were none. Many that said "Maybe" but non that said "Yes". Also last I checked... Reasonable Doubt was part of our laws, not reasonable suspicion.

I am not talking specifically about science... just preference....

Like I said, watching someone standing in the park masturbating doesn't cause cancer or bad physical effects either, it doesn't mean that people should have to be exposed to the unpleasantness in certain settings say like a public park.

I am in agreement that businesses should be able to determine their own smoking policies

But if you believe as Cher stated above.... then that is a different matter

[Fin]

9th Amendment

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

An argument for smoking can be made here, but a weak one.

14th Amendment

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Again, a theoretical stretch at best, & a losing one.

Any strong defense?

[phee]

whooow now, Odims...thats close to an almost racist's viewpoint...."our space"??

Your telling me that I, as a smoker, don't have a right to be in a public park....or maybe drink from the same water fountian as you...or even be within a 10 yard radius of you if I am smoking??

well...honestly...then FUCK YOU...and I will explain why.

If it's not illegal to kill a fetus, a seperate living organism, with it's own brainwaves and heartbeat, in the womb....then you shouldn't be able to ban smoking in public places.

Your worried about my RIGHT to smoke infringing on your clean air....well then, I get to complain about your INFRINGEMENT on MY RIGHTS by FORCE.

I'm 300+ lbs....does that mean I shouldn't be able to eat at a public resturant?? because, if you didn't know...that bill was on the table to be passed too...in Mississippi.

If a public Smoking ban gets passed....thats gonna be one of the next ones on the list...because it "offends you".

You don't like it...fucking move.

Easy there... no reason to toss insults...

Are you actually equating smokers as a different race? Smoking is a choice....

When you choose to smoke, you are not the only participant involved, those around you are also involved. That is a big difference... Its a lot like a loud car stereo, whether you like the music or not... that person is forcing you to listen to their music... just like you are forcing someone to inhale your smoke... Now the driver with the loud car stereo may have the "right" to listen to loud music in certain places I AGREE... but if their volume is infringing on other peoples rights to peace and quiet.... there is a different issue all together... the same goes for smoke.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

An argument for smoking can be made here, but a weak one.

Again, a theoretical stretch at best, & a losing one.

Any strong defense?

Yes, I stated it. If the 14th can be used to legalize abortion, it can be used to defend the rights of smokers.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Easy there... no reason to toss insults...

Are you actually equating smokers as a different race? Smoking is a choice....

When you choose to smoke, you are not the only participant involved, those around you are also involved. That is a big difference... Its a lot like a loud car stereo, whether you like the music or not... that person is forcing you to listen to their music... just like you are forcing someone to inhale your smoke... Now the driver with the loud car stereo may have the "right" to listen to loud music in certain places I AGREE... but if their volume is infringing on other peoples rights to peace and quiet.... there is a different issue all together... the same goes for smoke.

fine...it's about choices? good...go buy a gasmask or CHOOSE to breathe in millions of toxins, that aren't cigarette smoke, in to your lungs everyday. Oxygen, buy definition, is a POISON.

Take away my CHOICE to smoke and where I can smoke....it's gonna start getting worse, phee...and I know you can see where I am going with that. There was already a bill to ban ppl over 220 lbs from eating in public resturaunts, and a lawmaker in Colorado is trying to make uni-sex bathrooms REPLACE the seperate bathrooms, because he deemed them "offensive". IF he passes that Law in Colorado....that bill will be put to a FEDERAL committee...and become something nationwide if it gets passed.

Same shyt phee....if a ban on smoking gets passed...more and more bills that TAKE AWAY the freedoms of millions of americans will be passed...same as the stupid lawsuits.

It started with the lady not realizing that coffee was hot, and spilled it on herself....and now there is a group of ppl trying to sue the fast food industry because they are obese.

it has to STOP...and it has to stop NOW...and I, as a smoker, will be on the ban wagon to KEEP my choice FREE...like it should be.

I feel for your loss, phee...and I understand your commitment to wanting to keep your family and loved ones safe...but like I said...then go buy a gasmask....cuz there are MILLIONS of toxins in the air.

[n0Mad]

Completely off topic, I know, but I find it interesting how the same courts who call murdering a pregnant woman a double homicide are the same ones who call abortion pro-choice.

[Der Nister]

I find it HILARIOUS that a smokers "right" to smoke seems to outweigh a non-smokers "right" to breathe clean air.

Bottom line is that in a public area my not smoking has no effect on you, where as your smoking puts something into the air that was not there before and very much so has a direct and measurable effect on me.

In your home, your car, hey that's your space.

In a bar that chooses to allow it, that's their choice.

In a public park where I take my kids to play, that's our space. I should not be forced to deal with your inability to control your addictions. It's not my fault you have no self control.

disclaimer: "You", and "your" is used in the generic smoker sense, not meant directly toward Der Nister personally.

I just want to respond to this (it's nothing against you Odims) - we all have rights in this country that we agree upon. I did not say my rights (as a smoker) should be greater than those that do not smoke. As a smoker I greatly respect non smokers even when I'm outside smoking. I find it difficult to believe that when a person is outside that they are getting a breath full of second hand smoke (imo) unless you are directly next to a lite cigarette.

Something that I think is being left out of that remark (about outdoor smoke) is all the other pollutants that are filling the air. Just driving around I noticed nasty fumes from semi trucks invading my car. Land fill oders that find their way into my car. Factory emissions that I am breathing in when I am only passing by on my way to somewhere else. Those same foul oders (that I'm willing to bet are lethal) are more than likely finding their way to your nose as you are standing outside my friend. Not to mention into your home.

And as for the places pointed out that Odims said he is fine with people smoking (cars, homes) again, not directed at you but in Florida there is a smoking ban in homes for those that plan on re-selling their home. Now, what kind of shit is that? Can a non smoker tell me (and show me how) that is not our lawmakers infringing on the rights of our people?

My point is - again - that lawmakers are indeed trying to infringe on our rights and they need to be stopped. Today it's smoking and tomorrow it's something else and mark my words - it'll be something non smokers like doing and before we know it - we are going to be too far down a road we don't want to be on (it's a slippery slope at best).

And another thing I feel needs to be a part of this discussion - our (smoking) tax dollars. Now forget about the cost of health care for a moment (that's another argument) but if our government is going to gladly accept our tax dollars from tobbaco products and then try and band it's use in our country well I say - take the tax off tobbaco.

I realize our government is a big supporter of hypocricy and has proven day in and day out that they themselves can't see what's right 90 % of the time. But it is an injustice for them to tax the hell out of something and then turn around and start down the road of making the users of this product potential criminals by setting up laws that will be violated at some point.

Taxation without representation is tyranny.

James Otis American Revolutionary Patriot 1776

Our government is becoming too much like the tyrannical King in which our founding fathers had to deal with over 200 years ago.

[Fin]

Yes, I stated it. If the 14th can be used to legalize abortion, it can be used to defend the rights of smokers.

Unfortunately, that argument doesn't hold water.

I assume you are referring to the Equal Protection clause of the 14th Amendment. The clause requires that laws be applied equally, not that it give everyone equal treatment. Cries of "equal treatment violation" are a common misperception. Any clean air ordinance need only be examined for reasonableness as defined legally by "rational relationship." Provided such a relationship exists between government interest & the ordinance at hand, then no discrimination exists as the Constitution is written. This has been steadily & repeatedly upheld in several court cases for decades.

[phee]

fine...it's about choices? good...go buy a gasmask or CHOOSE to breathe in millions of toxins, that aren't cigarette smoke, in to your lungs everyday. Oxygen, buy definition, is a POISON.

Take away my CHOICE to smoke and where I can smoke....it's gonna start getting worse, phee...and I know you can see where I am going with that. There was already a bill to ban ppl over 220 lbs from eating in public resturaunts, and a lawmaker in Colorado is trying to make uni-sex bathrooms REPLACE the seperate bathrooms, because he deemed them "offensive". IF he passes that Law in Colorado....that bill will be put to a FEDERAL committee...and become something nationwide if it gets passed.

Same shyt phee....if a ban on smoking gets passed...more and more bills that TAKE AWAY the freedoms of millions of americans will be passed...same as the stupid lawsuits.

It started with the lady not realizing that coffee was hot, and spilled it on herself....and now there is a group of ppl trying to sue the fast food industry because they are obese.

it has to STOP...and it has to stop NOW...and I, as a smoker, will be on the ban wagon to KEEP my choice FREE...like it should be.

I feel for your loss, phee...and I understand your commitment to wanting to keep your family and loved ones safe...but like I said...then go buy a gasmask....cuz there are MILLIONS of toxins in the air.

I am not talking about banning smoking... I am talking about getting rid of it in public places like parks where my kids go.... Public sex is banned for the same reason.... health or not, I would not want my kids to think that smoking is a good idea, just like fucking on a playground is not a good idea.... so I would not want either in public. In businesses that allow it, sure, at home or in your car... fine.... Why is your right to smoke more important than my right to not breath your smoke?