Democratic Convention - Denver 2008

[SaGa]

I am ignoring the WHOLE DAMNED FASHION SHOW

united we stand, divided we fall, who came up with the dual party system?

it's not in the constitution

America's first political party was the Federalist Party founded by Alexander Hamilton in 1792. The Federalists favored a strong central government ruled by a wealthy educated elite, large cities with powerful industry, a national bank, strong military, treaty with Britain, and fewer rights for states and most citizens. Federalists controlled the government until 1801. George Washington supported many Federalist policies. America's second President, John Adams, was a member of the Federalist Party.[2]

America's second political party was the Democratic-Republican Party, founded by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison in 1792 in order to oppose the policies of the Federalists. The emergence of the Democratic-Republican Party marked the beginning of the U.S. two-party system. Jefferson was reluctant to create a party because he was opposed to political parties in general because of their power struggles for control of the government, but he felt that founding an opposition party was the best way to protect the rights of citizens from the consolidation of power in the federal government that the Federalists favored. The Democratic-Republican Party opposed the treaty with Britain, favored an agriculture-driven economy, spoke out against the Constitution (largely due to its initial vagueness and ambiguity), denounced the national bank, and promoted citizen's and states' rights. It became the dominant political party in the United States from 1800 until the 1820s, when it split into competing factions, one of which became the modern-day Democratic Party.

Therefore, the two party system in the U.S. occurred to prevent one party from gaining too much power, by creating a second party with opposite policies.

taken from wikipedia

republicans also ended up liking the industrial military complex after world war 2. seeing how it changed amarica from that time onward

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Sounds like he is willing to do what the others were not to get the job done....

Bin Lauden is still at large after all...

Start a war with Pakistan? Thats acceptable to you?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I also get the impression if the same words had come out of a Republicans lips you would have praised it as taking action, instead of just sitting around like the Dems....

That maybe just my impression though.

It's your to have, no matter how wrong.

[phee]

Start a war with Pakistan? Thats acceptable to you?

See above....

But in answer to your question.... if U.S. Policy is consistant about nations that harbor terrorists... then yes... that was after all why we started with Afganistan (which actually met with a large part of the worlds approval, unlike Iraq)

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Two different things.

The Tali-ban not only actively gave shelter to Al'Quada, they funded their terrorist activitys... They were also not recognized by the UN as the official Government of Afghanistan.

Thats not the same thing as knowing that some people are hiding in a part of your country that you barely have control over.

[phee]

Two different things.

The Tali-ban not only actively gave shelter to Al'Quada, they funded their terrorist activitys... They were also not recognized by the UN as the official Government of Afghanistan.

Thats not the same thing as knowing that some people are hiding in a part of your country that you barely have control over.

This is true....

At the same time though... if you were president.... how would you handle it?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

With a big smile on my face as I thanked Pakistan for what little help they had given with a "maybe we can get them next time". Then I would order in a black ops strike force.

[phee]

With a big smile on my face as I thanked Pakistan for what little help they had given with a "maybe we can get them next time". Then I would order in a black ops strike force.

OK

[Guest Megalicious]

I listening as we speak, waiting to see what the Lesser of a fucktard has to say.

[Guest Megalicious]

I DONT CARE WHAT GLAMOUR CREDIT MICHELLE OBAMA HAS, seriously NPR. WTF.

**sigh**

[the eternal]

The problem that I have with a lot of the thoughts floating around DGN is the exact problem that Obama is trying to fight against---unfettered cynicism.

Everything is bullshit.

No one cares.

There are no good ideas, and if there were, no politician would be championing it.

Well, as someone who has always been jaded but optimistic, frustrated but always fighting,

I think Obama gave a fucking amazing speech tonight.

He defined exactly who he is, what his beliefs are, what it means to be a democrat, and what needs to get done to clean up this heaping shitpile that Bush helped create.

I couldn't disagree with Gaf's views more, but I respect him because he is the mirror and opposite image of me.

He's wrong most of the time (imho) but at least he feels passion and conviction and clarity about what he thinks and what he fears Obama would do to this country.

That aside, I want to say then when Obama took on McCain's claim of being a maverick by saying

McCain votes with Bush 90% of the time

NINETY PERCENT!!!!

Obama was great with his jabs at McCain--

"John McCain said he'll follow Bin Laden to the gates of hell, but he won't even follow Bin laden to the cave he's hiding in" (Referring to when McCain and Bush decided to leave Afghanistan and go to Iraq which had NO wmd's and not a major terrorist presence until we went there to waste all of our money and lives there and all the terrorist cells followed us there to fight)

I won't criticicize Sass directly , but I do want to clarify a misconception about McCain

The idea that McCain is a moderate is UTTER BULLSHIT!

If you're a moderate:

You don't vote againsrt the minimum wage every time it comes up

You don't vote against equal pay for men and women

You don't have a 0% rating from NARAL (abortion rights group)

You don't ask to keep the Bush tax cuts for the rich permanent

You don't say you want to "bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran" and stay in Iraq indefinitely

You don't say fuck the auto industry and fuck universal health care

You don't say "we need to privatize social security" while medicare is a crumbling mess

and you CERTAINLY don't vote for Bush's policies 90% of the time!!!!

Just because you're soft on stem cells, doesn't make you some big middle of the road maverick.

It just means you have a small modicum of respect for science, something Bush is sorely lacking.

Almost any issues that DID define McCain as more "liberal" he has changed his position on and flip-flopped to

now adopt the conservative hardline.

And if people honestly doesn't think there's a difference between that and a man who:

wants to RAISE the minimum wage

wants to provide universal health care

wants to keep abortion safe, legal, and rare

wants to invest more money in education

wants to expand student loan programs

wants to cut taxes on 95% of Americans while getting rid of the

tax cuts on the people making ridiculous amounts of money

(Hello!! If you're a fucking millionaire, you shouldn't have bigger tax breaks than me!)

wants to get us out of Iraq

wants to resume talks with countries instead of dumb empty threats like "we'll smoke em from their holes"

and a man who is lockstep with Bush EVEN capitulating on the issue of torture, an issue that affected him more than

anyone else.

If you HONESTLY don't think there's a difference between these two people, you need to re-read this post and re-read this post and re-read this post until apples stop falling from the stupid tree and it starts to sink in.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't want Obama to be president because he's black, I want him in office because he's right!

And I don't give a shit about his perceived lack of experience.

He will do what any good leader/boss/visionary does---have the ideas to make good change and surround himself with people with the experience to know how bring them to fruition.

As for McCain, if you're pissed at Bush----

making McCain President is like the people that hated Bush that voted for his re-election in 2004, because

"he should be the one to clean up his mess"

That's like promoting someone becuase they completely fucked up at their job!

I don't want someone who's had over 25 years of experience fucking up this country.

I want a living wage.

I want accessible health care.

I want abortion to stay safe and legal.

I want someone who thinks it makes no sense to spend hundreds of billions of dollars for a conflict

and then cut the social services that ensure our men and women get the care and support they need when they return

I want us to get out of Iraq sometime in the next 1000 years.

And above all, I want a leader that thinks with the head on top of his shoulders

instead of grabbing his balls everytime a military conflict is possible or whenever some person or some nation

disagrees with him.

That's why I'm voting for Obama

I'm going to reprint his ridiculously good speech in another thread, so you can see what I did tonight.

[SaGa]

The problem that I have with a lot of the thoughts floating around DGN is the exact problem that Obama is trying to fight against---unfettered cynicism.

Everything is bullshit.

No one cares.

There are no good ideas, and if there were, no politician would be championing it.

Well, as someone who has always been jaded but optimistic, frustrated but always fighting,

I think Obama gave a fucking amazing speech tonight.

He defined exactly who he is, what his beliefs are, what it means to be a democrat, and what needs to get done to clean up this heaping shitpile that Bush helped create.

I couldn't disagree with Gaf's views more, but I respect him because he is the mirror and opposite image of me.

He's wrong most of the time (imho) but at least he feels passion and conviction and clarity about what he thinks and what he fears Obama would do to this country.

That aside, I want to say then when Obama took on McCain's claim of being a maverick by saying

McCain votes with Bush 90% of the time

NINETY PERCENT!!!!

Obama was great with his jabs at McCain--

"John McCain said he'll follow Bin Laden to the gates of hell, but he won't even follow Bin laden to the cave he's hiding in" (Referring to when McCain and Bush decided to leave Afghanistan and go to Iraq which had NO wmd's and not a major terrorist presence until we went there to waste all of our money and lives there and all the terrorist cells followed us there to fight)

I won't criticicize Sass directly , but I do want to clarify a misconception about McCain

The idea that McCain is a moderate is UTTER BULLSHIT!

If you're a moderate:

You don't vote againsrt the minimum wage every time it comes up

You don't vote against equal pay for men and women

You don't have a 0% rating from NARAL (abortion rights group)

You don't ask to keep the Bush tax cuts for the rich permanent

You don't say you want to "bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran" and stay in Iraq indefinitely

You don't say fuck the auto industry and fuck universal health care

You don't say "we need to privatize social security" while medicare is a crumbling mess

and you CERTAINLY don't vote for Bush's policies 90% of the time!!!!

Just because you're soft on stem cells, doesn't make you some big middle of the road maverick.

It just means you have a small modicum of respect for science, something Bush is sorely lacking.

Almost any issues that DID define McCain as more "liberal" he has changed his position on and flip-flopped to

now adopt the conservative hardline.

And if people honestly doesn't think there's a difference between that and a man who:

wants to RAISE the minimum wage

wants to provide universal health care

wants to keep abortion safe, legal, and rare

wants to invest more money in education

wants to expand student loan programs

wants to cut taxes on 95% of Americans while getting rid of the

tax cuts on the people making ridiculous amounts of money

(Hello!! If you're a fucking millionaire, you shouldn't have bigger tax breaks than me!)

wants to get us out of Iraq

wants to resume talks with countries instead of dumb empty threats like "we'll smoke em from their holes"

and a man who is lockstep with Bush EVEN capitulating on the issue of torture, an issue that affected him more than

anyone else.

If you HONESTLY don't think there's a difference between these two people, you need to re-read this post and re-read this post and re-read this post until apples stop falling from the stupid tree and it starts to sink in.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't want Obama to be president because he's black, I want him in office because he's right!

And I don't give a shit about his perceived lack of experience.

He will do what any good leader/boss/visionary does---have the ideas to make good change and surround himself with people with the experience to know how bring them to fruition.

As for McCain, if you're pissed at Bush----

making McCain President is like the people that hated Bush that voted for his re-election in 2004, because

"he should be the one to clean up his mess"

That's like promoting someone becuase they completely fucked up at their job!

I don't want someone who's had over 25 years of experience fucking up this country.

I want a living wage.

I want accessible health care.

I want abortion to stay safe and legal.

I want someone who thinks it makes no sense to spend hundreds of billions of dollars for a conflict

and then cut the social services that ensure our men and women get the care and support they need when they return

I want us to get out of Iraq sometime in the next 1000 years.

And above all, I want a leader that thinks with the head on top of his shoulders

instead of grabbing his balls everytime a military conflict is possible or whenever some person or some nation

disagrees with him.

That's why I'm voting for Obama

I'm going to reprint his ridiculously good speech in another thread, so you can see what I did tonight.

living wage.... we as amaricans are payed pretty damned good. when compared to most everyone else.

we just now require, a cellphone, a car, a shelter with a kitchen, main room and bedroom as minimum. and about 10 other useless things. minimum wage shouldnt have to pay for all that. but minimum wage can get you food and shelter. probly not the car.

health care on the other hand, is a growing beast that the goverment will have a tough time to tackle without destroying the jobs of many health care workers. or cutting there pay.

[Goth Brooks]

I am afraid of who she works for...

[TitsMcGee]

The only things McCain is able to draw are scorn, contempt, and apparently a big fat load of dough from his wife. I wouldn't vote for McCain if the other guy WAS Stalin.

Actually, all of his wife's money is in trusts that he has no access to if memory serves me right. He owns no property, and he has his own money. His wife on the other hand I believe owns 7 properties and takes care of an elderly aunt. The rest of the money is held up in real estate, stocks, or trusts for the kids.

[TitsMcGee]

The problem that I have with a lot of the thoughts floating around DGN is the exact problem that Obama is trying to fight against---unfettered cynicism.

Everything is bullshit.

No one cares.

There are no good ideas, and if there were, no politician would be championing it.

Well, as someone who has always been jaded but optimistic, frustrated but always fighting,

I think Obama gave a fucking amazing speech tonight.

He defined exactly who he is, what his beliefs are, what it means to be a democrat, and what needs to get done to clean up this heaping shitpile that Bush helped create.

I couldn't disagree with Gaf's views more, but I respect him because he is the mirror and opposite image of me.

He's wrong most of the time (imho) but at least he feels passion and conviction and clarity about what he thinks and what he fears Obama would do to this country.

That aside, I want to say then when Obama took on McCain's claim of being a maverick by saying

McCain votes with Bush 90% of the time

NINETY PERCENT!!!!

Obama was great with his jabs at McCain--

"John McCain said he'll follow Bin Laden to the gates of hell, but he won't even follow Bin laden to the cave he's hiding in" (Referring to when McCain and Bush decided to leave Afghanistan and go to Iraq which had NO wmd's and not a major terrorist presence until we went there to waste all of our money and lives there and all the terrorist cells followed us there to fight)

I won't criticicize Sass directly , but I do want to clarify a misconception about McCain

The idea that McCain is a moderate is UTTER BULLSHIT!

If you're a moderate:

You don't vote againsrt the minimum wage every time it comes up

You don't vote against equal pay for men and women

You don't have a 0% rating from NARAL (abortion rights group)

You don't ask to keep the Bush tax cuts for the rich permanent

You don't say you want to "bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran" and stay in Iraq indefinitely

You don't say fuck the auto industry and fuck universal health care

You don't say "we need to privatize social security" while medicare is a crumbling mess

and you CERTAINLY don't vote for Bush's policies 90% of the time!!!!

Just because you're soft on stem cells, doesn't make you some big middle of the road maverick.

It just means you have a small modicum of respect for science, something Bush is sorely lacking.

Almost any issues that DID define McCain as more "liberal" he has changed his position on and flip-flopped to

now adopt the conservative hardline.

And if people honestly doesn't think there's a difference between that and a man who:

wants to RAISE the minimum wage

wants to provide universal health care

wants to keep abortion safe, legal, and rare

wants to invest more money in education

wants to expand student loan programs

wants to cut taxes on 95% of Americans while getting rid of the

tax cuts on the people making ridiculous amounts of money

(Hello!! If you're a fucking millionaire, you shouldn't have bigger tax breaks than me!)

wants to get us out of Iraq

wants to resume talks with countries instead of dumb empty threats like "we'll smoke em from their holes"

and a man who is lockstep with Bush EVEN capitulating on the issue of torture, an issue that affected him more than

anyone else.

If you HONESTLY don't think there's a difference between these two people, you need to re-read this post and re-read this post and re-read this post until apples stop falling from the stupid tree and it starts to sink in.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't want Obama to be president because he's black, I want him in office because he's right!

And I don't give a shit about his perceived lack of experience.

He will do what any good leader/boss/visionary does---have the ideas to make good change and surround himself with people with the experience to know how bring them to fruition.

As for McCain, if you're pissed at Bush----

making McCain President is like the people that hated Bush that voted for his re-election in 2004, because

"he should be the one to clean up his mess"

That's like promoting someone becuase they completely fucked up at their job!

I don't want someone who's had over 25 years of experience fucking up this country.

I want a living wage.

I want accessible health care.

I want abortion to stay safe and legal.

I want someone who thinks it makes no sense to spend hundreds of billions of dollars for a conflict

and then cut the social services that ensure our men and women get the care and support they need when they return

I want us to get out of Iraq sometime in the next 1000 years.

And above all, I want a leader that thinks with the head on top of his shoulders

instead of grabbing his balls everytime a military conflict is possible or whenever some person or some nation

disagrees with him.

That's why I'm voting for Obama

I'm going to reprint his ridiculously good speech in another thread, so you can see what I did tonight.

Last time I checked minumum wage in this state is $7.40 if you're over 18. I haven't heard anything about McCain wanting to ban abortion, even though he is pro-life, but so is a good portion of the country. Personally I think the abortion issues should be left up to the states anyway. Plans are already in the works for a withdrawl from Iraq, I personally want to get our people out of there too so my brother doesn't have to go back. The VA had problems way before Bush came to office, because of Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom the problems have been brought to the fore front since there are so many Vet's coming back with injuries. The same thing happend after Vietnam. As for health care, many many minimum wage jobs offer it if you work more than 20 hours a week, fuck I can get it from McDonalds even. There is also affordable health care out there that you can buy on your own.

But thats just my two cents worth.

[bean]

I'm sorry, but people that think that minimum wage is enough to live on must have never been poor in their lives and/or don't give a fuck about poor people.

People live in rat/cockroach infested shitholes, in high crime areas because they have to not, because they want to.

But I guess someone has to work their ass off for little pay and live in squalor, right?

As for "affordable" health care - it covers nothing. You have to pay a monthly premium, and still have to pay the full amount anytime you go to the doctor. "Affordable" health care is a fucking joke.

[Az_]

What are your thoughts?

Speeches of Michelle, Hillary, Bill, Biden, and the like?

What's the purpose, and are they fulfilling it?

Pep rally or more?

Ever since the advent of the television these conventions have ceased to have any function other than whipping up the masses. The singular function of these conventions for me is the acceptance speech of the candidate. It is the means of framing their candidacy for the people to see. And as far as that function goes Obama's speech was one of the best I have ever seen.

[SaGa]

I'm sorry, but people that think that minimum wage is enough to live on must have never been poor in their lives and/or don't give a fuck about poor people.

People live in rat/cockroach infested shitholes, in high crime areas because they have to not, because they want to.

But I guess someone has to work their ass off for little pay, and live in squalor, right?

As for "affordable" health care - it covers nothing. You have to pay a monthly premium, and still have to pay the full amount anytime you go to the doctor. "Affordable" health care is a fucking joke.

I was poor. I understand what it was like.

compare that to china, india, and the competition, there living situations are much worse then ours. to compete in a market where there job is worth a lot less then our job to do the same thing. thats a global issue. minimum wage is not a living wage for a reason.... its not equal exchange. and thats the problem if minimum wage is indexed to inflation, it whould create a endless cycle of a ever incressing inflation. now if you believe in survival only, then minimum wage can work for anybody.

[Hellion]

The one thing that has always pissed me off is wages do not ever fit the cost of living,no matter how much experience you have no one wants to pay what your worth,and pay according to the cost of living,most employers do this shit alot,they think its no big deal,something needs to be done,just do not know what can be done.f$#@ing corporations suck.

[SaGa]

The one thing that has always pissed me off is wages do not ever fit the cost of living,no matter how much experience you have no one wants to pay what your worth,and pay according to the cost of living,most employers do this shit alot,they think its no big deal,something needs to be done,just do not know what can be done.f$#@ing corporations suck.

its the pay gaps recently thats more scary. the raio between minimum wage and ceo was 1:40 back in 1970 now i believe it can get as much as 1:200-1000s

why not market stuff for the poor. cars without a billion features that are standard. why are mobilehome lot rents almost as much as a single bedroom apartment. and thats ontop of the payments to own the mobilehome. its not that wages are bad. its that the price of things is so odly skewed. this home crisis is the result of such high housing value. should homes cost as much as 20 years of minimum wage. and thats just for a ranch before the crisis.

minimum wage isnt the problem. its jobs that shouldnt be minimum wage that are. jobs that involve a decent ammount of training for minimum wage. and its more so the process of putting people at part time. so they dont have to pay benefits.

[Guest Megalicious]

I'm sorry, but people that think that minimum wage is enough to live on must have never been poor in their lives and/or don't give a fuck about poor people.

Its true. Its one of the arguments I find myself having with friends that are rather conservitive and come from upper middle class families.

They don't understand, they will never understand.

I don't have a problem with supporting issues having to do with minium wage, or tax cuts for lower income, I DO have a huge problem with the fact that the majority of people around me (because by A2 standerds I do live poorly) have NO DESIRE or show a huge lack of intrest in rasing above making minium wage and living in a shit hole.

They have no drive to want to better themself, no drive to make a better future for them and their children, and guess what, IF YOU GOING TO have NO HSD, NO GED, then you going to be paid acordingly to your markatable skils POINT BLANK, I have no sympathy for lazy ass, ignorant people.

People don't seem to undestand, it takes HARD WORK to be able to work, go to school fulltime and have a kids, but it fucking pays off in the end.

[Hellion]

Also government has to quit giving all these cheap paying corporations so many rights,its time long overdue to help the working underpaid middle class.the cost of living in the U.S. is out of control,and yes high energy costs are alot to blame,and OPEC.

[TitsMcGee]

I'm sorry, but people that think that minimum wage is enough to live on must have never been poor in their lives and/or don't give a fuck about poor people.

People live in rat/cockroach infested shitholes, in high crime areas because they have to not, because they want to.

But I guess someone has to work their ass off for little pay and live in squalor, right?

As for "affordable" health care - it covers nothing. You have to pay a monthly premium, and still have to pay the full amount anytime you go to the doctor. "Affordable" health care is a fucking joke.

I know what it's like to be pretty damn broke. Growing up my dad was a merchant marine on the lakes which meant every winter we lived on unemployment, which wasn't that much when it's paying for a family of 4 to survive. Yes people end up living in shitty areas because thats what they can afford but unfortunatly in this day in age you do need to get a college degree to get something decent or find a factory job which in this state seem to be few and far in between. As for the affordable health care, yes you do have to pay up front but then you send in the paperwork and get rembursed. Life is a bitch for everyone, not only poor. You're forgetting the people who are considred middle class but can't afford to pay their bills but aren't "poor enough" to get government assistance. They are the ones who really get fucked over in the end.

[Guest Megalicious]

You're forgetting the people who are considred middle class but can't afford to pay their bills but aren't "poor enough" to get government assistance. They are the ones who really get fucked over in the end.

+2

[Hellion]

I know several people who have degrees and no one wants to hire them

I do skilled trade work,and should be making a few bucks more an hour,I blame the owner's not my boss,since he also knows what I should be making.