Who actually wants me here?

[hunhee]

I would agree with that, with the addition: "...no direct attack on another person... or their beliefs and/or opinions." It is possible, even easy, to craft your statements in such a way as to not appear as a direct attack. Arguments or debates can be conducted without rudeness or boorish behavior. To ask for such is not censorship or denying someone the chance to speak their mind according to their own personal style. Part of being an adult is to filter your thoughts before letting them escape your lips. It is not self-censorship, merely getting your own thoughts and opinions across in such a way as to encourage further debate and exchange of ideas. Not every discussion or debate has to be "won" by either party. I'm an intensely passionate person with strong and often unpopular opinions, but I've yet to be reprimanded or banned because I also understand the concept of tact.

Stick around SG. I like you.

Very well said!!! thanks Nightgaunt..

and yes, I really like you SG!! When I see your name as a DJ appearing somewhere, I usually try to make it out to said event!!!

[Morbid Side]

SG, I've known you for along time and you never really been insensitive towards my feelings. You never cut me down when others have. I think you're a stand up guy for how much you've contributed to the gothic scene and you also introduced me to quite a few people from the former Mephisto's. Heh, and I still remember when you played the oddest request from me, Green Jelly "Three Little Pigs." When most DJ's would have quickly iggyed that in a goth bar.

So its in your best interest if you stay or I will be digging your own grave. Joking!

[TygerLili]

I don't believe she was calling him rude...

& There is a difference between being direct & being plain rude.

I don't often offer Me opinion up in a serious manner.. But when I do, I am blunt because, like some others I don't give a rat's ass what people think of MY opinion.

BUT, I am tactful about it.

& There is nothing wrong with saying things like "in my opinion".. Or putting a disclaimer on what you say, or in your sig... It does not hinder your opinion...

Yes, people should not be so easily offended by mere words..... As others should not be offended by there offendededness

But this is just my opinion

This pretty much sums up my feelings as well. I am often blunt when I state my opinions. I don't kiss ass, if I say something nice to you it's because I mean it. But rudeness for the sake of rudeness is not constructive, from anyone.

And for the record, I don't agree with deleting posts for any reason other than directly calling someone out (ie: **** is gay. **** slept with my ex. **** is a racist.) and think most of them should be left up. But I didn't create the board, so I have to follow the rules set by the one who did.

But all of this is and I appologize, SG.

[Nightgaunt]

And I agree somewhat NG. Except that I don't believe in the idea of tact. It's vehemence and the absence of an edit button that most often incited change throughout history. If I didn't believe in God, I would have no problems saying so. I would have no problems with blasphemy. If somebody else blasphemes I have no problems with them.

Without a slight bit of rudeness, without challenging people's beliefs and opinions, this board is nothing but a dull textbook. There needs to be debate to truly learn anything, otherwise people just BS about their beliefs to sound worldly, impress everyone, make a statement, etc.

Vehemence is fine. Vehemence coupled with rudeness or obviously offensive/insulting speech is not. Say, for a moment, that it did bother you if someone else blasphemed. Which response would, in your opinion "incite change" (in this case, getting the person to reevaluate their behavior)?

A. "Sinner! Don't you dare take my god's name in vain! People like you outta be stoned to death in the public square like the good ol' days!"

B. "I don't appreciate the implied slight against my beliefs. Please explain in a rational way why you seem to be so antagonistic toward my faith."

Which one would lead to a more constructive discussion and which to a flame war? The judicious use of tact is how we are able to communicate and arrive at mutual understanding. Being rude rarely challenges people's beliefs and opinions; more often it simply incites like behavior and/or causes the other party to become more entrenched in their beliefs. "See? He can't even debate me without resorting to name calling and ad hominem attacks!"

Wrenching the facts into light seperates the children from the adults, not wrenching proper manners from people who don't live in the garden district.

This strikes me as a bit sophomoric. If one believes that society should be less sexually inhibited, should one hang out naked, masturbating in a public park? That would certainly wrench people out of their comfort zones and force them to take an uncomfortable look at the facts as you see them. It's a crude and extreme example, but we all (no matter how "antiestablishment" we may see ourselves) accept certain rules of behavior for the benefit of all. The social contract of a society exists to level the playing field, in a sense. If no one attempted to be tactful or respectful of others, it would be social anarchy, and while that may sound thrilling to a teenager, it would, in reality, be a very bad trip.

All that having been said, there is, I believe, a time and a place in which the rules do not apply, but we're talking about interpersonal exchanges here, and not political upheaval. Tiananmen Square, anyone? The Spirit of 1776? Spitting in the eye of King George changed history, but diplomacy has its place.

*Edited for punctuation and spelling.

[Scales]

You obviously want to stay so you should.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

All that having been said, there is, I believe, a time and a place in which the rules do not apply, but we're talking about interpersonal exchanges here, and not political upheaval. Tiananmen Square, anyone? The Spirit of 1776? Spitting in the eye of King George changed history, but diplomacy has its place.

*Edited for punctuation and spelling.

I was just formulating a response about the greatest use of tact in history... The Declaration of Independance... and then you brought it up.

[Lost Cemetary of Dead Pets]

I heart Scary Guy

[Destroit]

I totally agree with you. Aren't goths supposed to be tough and intimidating? When did we turn into a crowd with such fragile feelings that we can't even deal with the negativity and controversy that created this subculture?

St. Masey, have I told you how much I love you in awhile? I mean, you know, love you in the darkest and most aggressive way possible.

Everyone else! Listen to him! I dunno, it's just my two cents. Don't go around being intentionally dicky to people, that just makes you a jock, but when the truth is right there and everyone is afraid to talk about the giant elephant in the room that's crushing the furniture and messing up the carpet? That's WORSE than living in a world full of assholes, imo.

So...basically, be goth, and speak the TRUTH when it needs to be SPOKEN. Don't go looking for trouble, but when an issue needs to be addressed, I think it needs to be addressed in full and honestly. Just my two cents.

In my opinion, sometimes feelings need to be hurt for progress to be made, if they aren't, how is anyone going to know that they're doing whatever it is wrongly?

[pomba gira]

Vehemence is fine. Vehemence coupled with rudeness or obviously offensive/insulting speech is not. Say, for a moment, that it did bother you if someone else blasphemed. Which response would, in your opinion "incite change" (in this case, getting the person to reevaluate their behavior)?

A. "Sinner! Don't you dare take my god's name in vain! People like you outta be stoned to death in the public square like the good ol' days!"

B. "I don't appreciate the implied slight against my beliefs. Please explain in a rational way why you seem to be so antagonistic toward my faith."

Which one would lead to a more constructive discussion and which to a flame war? The judicious use of tact is how we are able to communicate and arrive at mutual understanding. Being rude rarely challenges people's beliefs and opinions; more often it simply incites like behavior and/or causes the other party to become more entrenched in their beliefs. "See? He can't even debate me without resorting to name calling and ad hominem attacks!"

This strikes me as a bit sophomoric. If one believes that society should be less sexually inhibited, should one hang out naked, masturbating in a public park? That would certainly wrench people out of their comfort zones and force them to take an uncomfortable look at the facts as you see them. It's a crude and extreme example, but we all (no matter how "antiestablishment" we may see ourselves) accept certain rules of behavior for the benefit of all. The social contract of a society exists to level the playing field, in a sense. If no one attempted to be tactful or respectful of others, it would be social anarchy, and while that may sound thrilling to a teenager, it would, in reality, be a very bad trip.

All that having been said, there is, I believe, a time and a place in which the rules do not apply, but we're talking about interpersonal exchanges here, and not political upheaval. Tiananmen Square, anyone? The Spirit of 1776? Spitting in the eye of King George changed history, but diplomacy has its place.

*Edited for punctuation and spelling.

.

True dat, x1000. No one's opinion was ever changed by being insulted.

[torn asunder]

scary guy, your opinions are not the problem in any way, and you're not getting in trouble for being you. everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and to voice them as well. what is not allowed is the way in which you do so.

it takes very little effort to couch your comments in less inciteful terms. if i tell someone "you're a dick!" that's unacceptable - if i tell them "i don't agree with/appreciate the way you're (whatever)" that *is* acceptable.

why is this so freaking difficult for everyone to understand? say what you want, but be nice, or at least, respectful about it. it's not rocket science...

[Guest greyhalo]

I like you, Scary Guy. You've been around the scene as well as DGN a lot longer than most people. Please stay.

[Bernadette]

I hope you stay!

[Msterbeau]

I would agree with that, with the addition: "...no direct attack on another person... or their beliefs and/or opinions." It is possible, even easy, to craft your statements in such a way as to not appear as a direct attack. Arguments or debates can be conducted without rudeness or boorish behavior. To ask for such is not censorship or denying someone the chance to speak their mind according to their own personal style. Part of being an adult is to filter your thoughts before letting them escape your lips. It is not self-censorship, merely getting your own thoughts and opinions across in such a way as to encourage further debate and exchange of ideas. Not every discussion or debate has to be "won" by either party. I'm an intensely passionate person with strong and often unpopular opinions, but I've yet to be reprimanded or banned because I also understand the concept of tact.

Stick around SG. I like you.

[Hellion]

SG you have been one of my best friends yes I left because of disrespectful ppl,and other bs,it takes alot to offend me,and for example if someone rips on someone that is not on DGN,political figure,CEO's or other non board members should not offend anyone,unless they are a society lover/government lover(sarcasm)

I know I am pretty well hated here but it does not bother me,at all,unless it bacame a threat to me,or my friends and family.

The one thing that does piss me off is when some ppl will automatically assume some one is being emo,when they go on a rant,but really they are suffering from clinical depression,something that I have as well,but can control very well.

that one ass-umtion from other people really fires me up.anyone who suffers from clinical depression is not %$#@ing emo!.its an illness that does need medical attention,not hatred!you must have depression to know what its really like.

I will decide if I ever will come back,consider this a very rare visit and a quick one as well.I am currently working 12 hourdays at work for the time being,and liking it.as well.

gotta go,stop by the coffee house sometime SG

[Troy Spiral (13)]

*The board tyrant descends to make is unfair decree*

As far as I know you've never been banned, just to clarify. Being on mod preview is very different than being banned.

Nightgaunt and several others covered it.

I want you here I've said it several times, i don't want the drama. Its not a democracy. Its not a popularity contest. The rules wont change due to a "vote". If I want you here, the board wants you here. So your staying, it has been decided.

I've taken a ton of bullets for you over the years, even had people quit because I defended your way of saying some things that they felt where too abrasive. This idea that your being somehow "picked on" unfairly is 500% incorrect. I've went up to bat for you personally myself several times and so have several other mods.

This sort of stuff is a judgment call. A difficult, stressful judgment call. At some point an endless stream of lets call it "very close or over the line" type comments, that might not be strictly, taken as just 1 isolated post, be a big deal add up. Over time the abrasiveness level gets too high. (Many posters reading this will have no idea as many of the posts are deleted by the hardworking mods or we are talking about years of this behavior before many readers even were on DGN.)

"Being yourself" sounds nice and all, but its an age old problem. Some people are by nature very nice and not snappy or abrasive or politically incorrect at all. These people can do just fine "being themselves" in mixed company. The rest of us have to realize we exist in a world where the bull-in-china-shop system just doesn't work. I personally could not survive very long just "being myself" (that is saying whatever crap came into my mind at any given moment) as my nature is very politically incorrect and I'd probably offended every single person I know given enough time.

You have to know where you are and who your audience is. Tact is required everywhere except inside your own brain.

This is a privately owned board, there is a certain level of civility that is expected and the rules are agreed to before a single post is made.

Don't think i didn't notice that comment about posting here rather than just being someone that just uses DGN for promotion. Its appreciated.

Personally, I have never found anything you have said to be offensive.. Then again I am not easily offended...

Just as a general thought about any poster. There is a lot of stuff that people never see because the mods do their jobs. Many posters seem "good" and "non abrasive" because their negative stuff is not visible.

Just to state for the 10001th time:

Rarely is it anyone's "views" that are at issue, its the tone and level of tact used when making these points that is at issue. There are a few, severely extremist views that are just flat out not acceptable, but they are rare and I'm not sure they even apply to more than a very, very few posts.