If My Brother Dies....

[Paper Hearts]

2. We are in an economic downspin only if you ignore every economic trend that is actually happening.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

**I'm not sure which economic trends you're paying attention to, however, what I see is that drug prices rose last year by more than twice the rate of inflation, the largest increase in the five years. Under President Bush, health care costs for families have skyrocketed almost 50 percent and college tuition has gone up about 36 percent, even taking inflation into account. In fact, health insurance costs are expected to rise by 12.6 percent this year alone—increasing the burden on both employers and employees in making ends meet.

When Bush’s proposals to extend his tax cuts and continue to fund the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are accounted for, projected deficits never dip below $330 billion over the next decade and total $4.0 trillion over the 2006-2015 period.

Consumer Prices Are Outstripping Wage Growth. The Consumer Price Index, which measures inflation, rose 0.5 percent in July—the largest monthly increase since April—leaving overall consumer prices 3.2 percent higher last month than they were a year ago. Wages have lagged by comparison: after adjusting for inflation, average weekly earnings for private production and non-managerial employees fell last month by 0.2 percent—which bought 0.5 percent less last month than they did one year ago. These workers make up 80 percent of the labor force.

Retail gas prices hit another record high over the past three weeks, mirroring a rapid increase in the cost of crude oil. The average price for all three grades rose nearly 22 cents to $2.53 in the three-and-a-half weeks ending August 16. Higher prices for gasoline and other energy products caused inflation to shoot up in July, even as output at the nations’ factories, mines and utilities slowed sharply.

Home foreclosures are on a steady increase.

1. The majority of Iraqis do want Democracy... it's a very small minority that are against it. They just happen to be the ones willing to make road side bombs and Kill thier country men to prevent it from happening.

**Again, democracy+people does not = freedom. In a Democracy, a government is of the majority thereby allowing the ruling class the opportunity to opress all others.

Here's one of the reasons why the GOP and Bush had to go back on their original goals in Iraq:

New Constitution Could Severely Restrict Rights of Women. Iraq's new constitution could severely restrict the rights of women, not only curtailing the freedom and opportunity they once enjoyed in Iraq, but also reducing by half the nation's potential for economic and social progress. [Houston Chronicle, 8/11/05]

Fear That New Iraqi Constitution Will Undermine Women’s Rights. Various drafts of the constitution contain half a dozen provisions that women's rights groups and other human rights groups have found worrisome. Of greatest concern to the women's groups, though, is an article that would guarantee the followers of any particular sect the freedom to abide, essentially, by their own family law, requiring women to be subject to the narrow religious rulings of whichever cleric happens to be in charge of her local sect. ''It's really a huge setback,'' said Shirouk al-Abayachi, project manager of the Iraqi Women's Network.. ''In a state of going forward,'' she said, referring to Iraq's budding democracy, ''we are going backward.'' [New York Times, 8/8/05]

Women's Groups Express Concern About Direction of New Constitution. Women's groups have expressed alarm at indications that the constitution's drafters intend to remove family law from the jurisdiction of civil courts and place it under the authority of religious courts that typically accord women fewer rights than men in matters such as marriage, inheritance and divorce. Officials say that issue hasn't been resolved. [Chicago Tribune, 7/28/05]

American Officials Press for Changes in Constitution Because of Limits on Women's Rights. American and Iraqi women's-rights advocates fear that Iraq's new constitution, which is to be completed by Aug. 15, will limit women's ability to participate in almost all aspects of society. Early drafts of the constitution that have been made public are based on Islamic Shariah law, which affect women's rights regarding such personal issues as marriage, divorce and inheritance. But American officials, led by the new U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad, are pressing for significant changes in the draft constitution, including full equality in the law for women. [scripps Howard News Service, 8/9/05]

Iraqi Women Activists Demand New Constitution Protect Their Rights. Iraqi women activists called on parliament Monday to limit the role of Islam in the new constitution and follow international treaties on the rights of women and children. During a press conference, the group, which included Minister of State for Women's Affairs Azhar al-Sheikhly, demanded the new constitution safeguard their rights, which some feel have been threatened by proposals by both Sunni and Shiite politicians to make Islam the main source of legislation. [AP, 8/1/05]

See what I'm saying about Democracy?

3. And your last point.. The TV is the one saying that the war is going badly, not the people who are actually there. Which one of us is brainwashed?

**Television-well, I wouldn't rightly know, however, I do know they said we had to go to war because Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction were a threat to us. There were no WMDs. They said we had to go to war because of September 11, but there was no connection between Iraq and those horrific attacks. They said we had to go to war to free the Iraqi people, but they've turned the country into the world's most dangerous terrorist training ground and a cradle of civil strife.

The rosy predictions of war at virtually no cost and almost without bloodshed have turned out to be as unreliable as the reasons for starting it.

[Msterbeau]

Today, approximately 20 minutes ago..... my brother John left with George to go to the airport.

Within a few weeks, John will be shipped out to serve in Iraq.  Specifically, Ramidan.

I swear, I want to thank Bush for making this war not only a miserable excuse to prove America's stupidity but also for brining pain and misery to all the families who have lost their loved ones to the bullet or other tortures from an enemy's hands.

Bush, if John dies, it's all your god-damned fault.

Holy shit!! Sorry that your brothers got shipped out FarrIL!! I go camping for a few days and look what goes on! :confused

Bush and his cronies already have 1800+ American lives on their hands... plus countless Iraqis...

I pray that he returns home safely. :clover

[Soulrev]

It's not about believing in the war it's about the country itself.

Perhaps stating The country wasn't clear enough in the fact that I meant America. Not Iraq.

We're servicing Iraqis by giving them something they don't want. Democracy.

It's people like you that are so easily swayed into believing everything you hear and see on TV

Well, sir, apparently you should heed your own advice. You don't think Iraqi people want freedom? Why don't you pack a bag for a week and spend few days in Baghdad, talk to the people there yourself and find out for yourself if they don't want Democracy.

Have I gone over there and talked to them myself? No. But I'm willing to bet my sources are better than yours. Because I have talked to people who have been over there, people who have LIVED over there. You know who doesn't want Democracy in Iraq? The same people who wanted to keep Saddam. You know who those people are, sir? They are the organized crime groups, of course. The criminals want Saddam back. They were Kings (not literally) when Saddam was in power. They got away with whatever they wanted to, hell, some even got funds FROM Saddam, and of course, Saddam was taking his fair share of pay-offs from criminal organizations throughout the country.

This isn't the point of my rant, but you go and talk to the Iraqi people yourself before you make your high-and-mighty statement about what you think THEY want.

I don't see what this has to do with your average American, our rights, or our freedoms. Go take your brainwashed rant somewhere else.

From Dictionary.com -

Patriotism

n : love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it

New word for your vocabulary, buddy. Check it out, learn it, understand it, maybe you'll see things from my view someday.

[Steven]

Careful Pickle.... your rather disrespectful (the MORON reference) toward those adults who have weighed the evidence based on their own sets of values and made up their minds.

Remember too - that your not a vet, your not a soldier, there are thigns therefore that you will simply not understand with the depth that these patriots do - it is not all political - it is often, very very personal why someone becomes a soldier. Wartime or peacetime - it is a difficult and dangerous choice that ensures certain freedoms for you and I.

Steven

[JaneDead]

if it does then we're two suckin' grrls together

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i'd be suckin' right there with you

[Guest Game of Chance]

Careful Pickle.... your rather disrespectful (the MORON reference) toward those adults who have weighed the evidence based on their own sets of values and made up their minds. 

Remember too - that your not a vet, your not a soldier, there are thigns therefore that you will simply not understand with the depth that these patriots do - it is not all political - it is often, very very personal why someone becomes a soldier.  Wartime or peacetime - it is a difficult and dangerous choice that ensures certain freedoms for you and I.

Steven

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent post Steven. Those boys over there signed up to protect all of us. I think people forget that all too often.

[pomba gira]

CP, yeah and maybe ...monkeys will shoot out of my asshole. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now THAT'S something I'd pay to see...

I can't decide which would be cooler, cute lil' squirrel monkeys or scary Wizard of Oz-type demon monkeys... maybe the former riding on the latter... :grin

Also- can we please voice opinions without calling names? Some people on here say things that are 180 from everything I believe and/or consider motherwit- but I would never start slinging gratuitous insults at them, out of respect for this community if nothing else.

[Scary Guy]

"Patriotisim is supporting your country all the time and your government when it deserves it" - Mark Twain

I don't think they're over there fighting for our freedoms. I think they're fighting for our way of life to give it to them if they like it or not, and for our oil, and for his daddy's war.

Also excuse CP, he comes from that other forum where that type of namecalling is common place. It's cool though I think his IQ has gone up since his arrival here.

[Soulrev]

Thank you, Steven.

David, I respect your views and all but come on man, don't you think if it were about oil we'd be seeing tankers lined up in San Francisco full of oil from Iraq by now? Let's face it, Iraq was in a piss poor shape of a country with a dictator of 35 years of hell for those people who live in it.

Farril, I apologize for being rude in my initial post but things like that really make me angry. I understand how you feel but like I said, to bring down what your brother believes in is to bring down your brother himself. I would slap my sister silly if she said something like that when I end up leaving for Iraq, eventually.. Just keep your best wishes out for your brother and (I dunno if you are Christian or not) pray for him in whatever way you feel suited. I will do the same for him.

BTW What is it your brother does in the military? What's his job title?

-B

[The_Dark]

Paperhearts...

I'll not argue the economics of this.. many know more than I on the subject, I just know that the trends your giving are trends that were already happening for the last 20 years. The cost of Health care started going up dramatically with the advent of the HMO aan other really stupid ideas to "save money". Wages vs of Cost of Living is another thing that has been going farther and farther off kilter for years.. not just since Bush came into office. I know this much about the economy.. I am better off now than I was 6 years ago and it gets better everyday.

As for the WMD argument. Save it. Your blaming a mistake made by every intelligence agency in the world on one man. President Bush made claims based on Intelligence reports from all over the world and from every major agency. Your shooting the messanger rather than the source of the false message. And lest we forget... THERE WERE WMD's. There is no question of that.. the question is.. Where are they now?

As for Freedom vs Democracy and women's rights in Iraq.... If you can think up a better form of government than democracy that actually works on a large scale.. the world would really like to know because noone else ever has. Exactly what rights did women have before we invaded? The right to be raped? The right to sit down and shut the fuck up? The right to be property? I know there are concerns over what rights women will have in the new iraq... but some people seem to forget they had absolutly none before.

[The_Dark]

ooops

[Jarodaka]

As for Freedom vs Democracy and women's rights in Iraq.... If you can think up a better form of government than democracy that actually works on a large scale.. the world would really like to know because noone else ever has.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How about a constitutionally limited Republic? It's done the U.S. well for some 200+ years.

[The_Dark]

But that falls under the definition of a democracy.

[Jarodaka]

But that falls under the definition of a democracy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ugh, the term democracy has been so bastardized and abused, it has no meaning anymore. It used to mean a government run by majority rule. I have a funny feeling that's not the definition you'll be giving me.

[Vater Araignee]

VA you are a true patriot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks. I don't hear that enough.

If you think anyone going to war in Iraq is servicing their country, you're a moron. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Grow up.

For one Iraq has little to do with our country.  We're servicing Iraqis by giving them something they don't want.  Democracy.  Now we're not only paying for it with the lives of our American soldiers, but we're also facing serious economic problems because of it. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That sounds like you've been listening to the "Liberal News Media" whom by the way, if I might remind you is the majority news media.

It's people like you that are so easily swayed into believing everything you hear and see on TV that bring us to wars such as this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Once again Liberal News Media.

Now personally, I don't care who sits in office, whether it's a Republican or a Democrat,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most intelligent thing you've said yet.

because my money didn't put them on Television.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes it did see your next quote.

I'm sorry but anyone with half a brain in their head would know that big business pays for this advertising because our bi partisan system does not represent America it represents big business.  So you're not only fighting for Iraqis by going to war, but you're also fighting for the agenda of corporate America.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok now you can do us all a favor by not supporting big business.

May I recommend that you start by no longer purchasing food?

Then you can stop using the internet, or buying clothing .HELL you don't want buy or rent a place to live because you'll be giving somebody money that will support big business in some way.

Oh hey don't forget you can't get any gas and and and and and and and ............

I don't see what this has to do with your average American, our rights, or our freedoms.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because it would not serve your personal agenda.

Go take your brainwashed rant somewhere else. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So what your saying is "The news is brainwashing us into being pro war by telling us the the Iraqi's don't want democracy and by telling us how bad it is over their?

I wont even get into my cousin over there who is a tank commander that put his attempt at gaining a war History professorship on hold so that he could do what he believed was right.

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

Welcome to planet earth people. On planet earth not everyone wants democracy. As a matter of fact most people including the Iraqis hate us. If you would believe that going over and overthrowing a nation and taking it's leader out for no reason is the ways wars should be fought that's fine by me. I'm not going to ask you to think for yourselves. Keep in mind though, that Saddam is not Bin Laden. We're supposed to be fighting a war on terror, but Bush has wagged the dog. Democracy will not last in Iraq, because that is not their way of life.

Scary you're an idiot. My IQ is well above 160, and always has been. I'd don't see what that has to do with anything but don't even try bashing mine when yours is 90. It makes you look even dumber.

If our soldiers are enlisted to protect us and preserve our rights than Bush should have them all searching for Bin Laden. When they find him, they should be brought home to protect us here. This war, like any other war we've fought in history other than the Civil War and the Revolutionary War has nothing to do with protecting our freedoms and rights. I am a patriot. Most of my family has served during wartime. Don't even claim to know anything of my patriotism because you do not. If going to war changes your outlook on patriotism then that's something I'd prefer not to do. Why? I'd rather not have blind patriotism based on following orders carried out to serve injustice in this world. Our cause over there is no better than the cause of Nazi Germany. We don't like the Muslim way of life or how they handle their business, just as the Nazis didn't like the Jews and blamed them for all of their problems. We have scapegoated the Muslims the same way and exploited their way of life all in the name of precious oil reserves. We've not only invaded, attacked, and overthrown an innocent country, but we've imposed a way of life that they're not accustomed to and do not want. I know quite a bit about not only American History but also other histories that haven't been contaminated with American influence.

We are hypocrites. We talk about policing the world, but we can't even police our own country. There are people dying on our own streets while we send work out to other countries and allow foreigners to work here. We tell the world they can't stockpile weapons of mass destruction yet we have more nuclear and chemical warfare than any of them. Reagan asked for an International Ban on chemical warfare in 1984, yet completely disregarded the UN's ban on V-series nerve agents in 1980. We have more V-series nerve agents (the most deadly form of chemical warfare) than any other country. In fact we have enough of just this to kill the whole world.

Patriotism does not come from ignorant blind faith. It comes from knowing one's rights and responsibilities to their nation. It comes from actually educating yourself rather than blindly following the media. Now you guys can piss and moan on here and be upset with me all you want, but this dosn't change one basic fact. Our soldiers are not supposed to serve the agenda of our politicians. They're supposed to serve and protect us. If Bush wanted Iraq bad enough to let the enemy go, he shouldn't have sent so many men into their deaths. There are many other military tactics that not only would've got the job done cleaner, but a lot quicker too. Pussy warfare tactics are only going to get men killed.

Our country will not change for the better until people learn to read and quit being so damn lazy. So many things are so easily overlooked when there is a meaningless war going on. Our education system for example has been lacking for years. Our economy is screwed. Billions of our tax dollars are wasted every year on projects that will never serve any purpose whatsoever yet we have a quality of life that only ranks 15 in the world. If you were such patriots you'd have enough pride in your country to want to make it better. People would hate us out of envy rather than hypocrisy. So don't give me your patriotism speeches. Sit on your thumbs some more and watch the decay of the USA since all your really good at is bitching.

Farril honey your brother will be in my prayers.

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

CP, yeah and maybe pigs will fly and monkeys will shoot out of my asshole.  We're at the stage now where we're too far into it to go back.  Our rights are being stripped away more and more as time goes on.  There is even talk about making the patriot act permenant.  Things are slid in with other acts that have nothing to do with that act at all.  Most Americans claim to be patriots but couldn't care less about digging into politics and are more interested in who wore what to what stupid awards show or what happened on that reality TV show last night or other trivial crap is going on in the world at that moment.  They don't know shit aobut anything and just don't care anymore.  It makes me want to become physically ill.  In time people will get fed up I'm sure,  but then again thats what those work camps we have are for, they're huge and out in the middle of nowhere (look it up).

HH I'd never make it through basic training, I'd end up punching the drill sargent IN THE FACE!!!  I don't handle orders will from authority figures.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is by far the dumbest thing I've ever heard you say Scary. Change is inevitable. People will want better lives for themselves when they're done tolerating the tyranny and injustice that exists in our nation. Knowing this if you really care you should be doing something about it, instead of whining that people will never change. If you love your country and would support it then serve it. I'm not saying go to war, I'm saying get off your ass or shut your mouth.

I've spent the better majority of my life finding ways to make things better, raise our education standards, lower poverty, make sure people have health coverage, lower crime, raise our quality of life standards, keep jobs in America, promote people's sense of self-worth, promote allegiance to one's nation, restructure our Constitution and government so they resemble each other as well as the times, strengthen our military defenses, etc. I'm working on not only a book, but also a website that allows user feedback as well as starting meetings, and petitioning our grivances to the government. I'm also working on the design for a political party that I will be running for the Presidency in. What have you been doing? You go on talking about work camps like some scared little chicken.

It's funny how we say Germany was ruled by fear yet it wasn't even close. Germany not only supported Hitler, but they had true allegiance to their nation. They didn't follow him out of fear, we follow out of fear. They followed him, because everything he did rebuilt their nation from the ashes of WWI. While I don't agree with the holocausts, he scapegoated the Jews just like we're scapegoating the Muslims. You shouldn't need a scapegoat to make people proud to serve their country in whatever manner they do. You should only need facts.

[Scary Guy]

Oh this looks to be fun...

If you would believe that going over and overthrowing a nation and taking it's leader out for no reason

First off it's not for no reason, maybe wrong reasons, but not for no reason.

Scary you're an idiot.  My IQ is well above 160, and always has been.  I'd don't see what that has to do with anything but don't even try bashing mine when yours is 90.  It makes you look even dumber.

OOH a personal attack, I can let this slide, again cause you're new here. But these really aren't tollerated here and don't go over well. This isn't the other forum, so learn the policies, rules, and nettequite of this one. When in Rome, do like the Romans do.

I won't even bother pointing out the flaws in the rest of your reply. It was a long read and I think it made me dumber for having done so. You sir are no patriot. Actually you're more of a coward like I am, but it's OK. Being a coward keeps you alive and bravery is often confused with stupidity. The first person to take a stand is usually the first to get shot back down.

As far as change goes when people actually want to effect a change it will be too late to do anything about it. which was the entire point of my last post.

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

Oh this looks to be fun...

First off it's not for no reason, maybe wrong reasons, but not for no reason.

OOH a personal attack, I can let this slide, again cause you're new here.  But these really aren't tollerated here and don't go over well.  This isn't the other forum, so learn the policies, rules, and nettequite of this one.  When in Rome, do like the Romans do.

I won't even bother pointing out the flaws in the rest of your reply.  It was a long read and I think it made me dumber for having done so.  You sir are no patriot.  Actually you're more of a coward like I am, but it's OK.  Being a coward keeps you alive and bravery is often confused with stupidity.  The first person to take a stand is usually the first to get shot back down.

As far as change goes when people actually want to effect a change it will be too late to do anything about it. which was the entire point of my last post.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Scary I made no personal attack on you, until you made one on me, so don't even bother with policies and rules.

There are no flaws in my post either. Gather your wits and say something in response to facts or don't bother.

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

Excellent post Steven.  Those boys over there signed up to protect all of us.  I think people forget that all too often.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now I don't mean to disrespect any soldiers here by any means. It's not their fault that they're following orders for a country that would send them to their death if it meant more money for big business. However, most soldiers don't sign up to protect us. They sign up because they're unsure of their futures, and the military provides a lot of benefits such as GI Bills, job training, etc. I'm sure there are quite a few that only enlisted to serve their country, but it's just sad that we consider them disposable enough to send them to die for unjust causes. Whether it be the rubber industry in Vietnam or the oil industry in the middle east, they are not sent out to serve and protect us and our freedoms. They're sent out to satisfy the greed of corporate America.

[Paper Hearts]

Dark-

Bush entered his presidency with large surplus-he turned it into a larger debt than the amount of debt made by the last five presidents before him combined and he did it in just three years.

While you might blame HMOs for part of skyrocketing healthcare, there are many other factors and regardless, it's a crisis. All the same, it's getting worse and given every opportunity to fix the problem Bush has instead sided with the drug companies.

Durring the Bush presidency, the gap between inflation and the cost of living has gotten larger. Whether or not one's theory is that it is as result of Bush's poilicies, it's not a very good president that says, well, it's not my problem. A Good president would at least attempt (seriously attempt) to fix it.

If you are better off now than you were before, you'd be in the minority, if you are better off because of Bush's policies, you'd be either him or Dick Cheney.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

***As for the WMD argument. Save it. Your blaming a mistake made by every intelligence agency in the world on one man. President Bush made claims based on Intelligence reports from all over the world and from every major agency. Your shooting the messanger rather than the source of the false message. And lest we forget... THERE WERE WMD's. There is no question of that.. the question is.. Where are they now?***

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bush said "they've got WMD, I know they've got WMD and if they don't I'll take the responsibility" Now, beyond this, It seems to me that if you're going to send some one to war you should be damn sure about these type of things...especially if you are striking first.

How can you say there were WMD? Even Dick Cheney has admited to the notion being a miscalculation- How do you know about these things and no one else? Are these the ones we sold to Saddam under Reagan? Look-that's ridiculous. Just go back and read what you wrote, again.

____________________________________________________________________

***As for Freedom vs Democracy and women's rights in Iraq.... If you can think up a better form of government than democracy that actually works on a large scale.. the world would really like to know because noone else ever has. Exactly what rights did women have before we invaded? The right to be raped? The right to sit down and shut the fuck up? The right to be property? I know there are concerns over what rights women will have in the new iraq... but some people seem to forget they had absolutly none before.***

____________________________________________________________________

No. You're misconstrueing my meaning. It's just that you keep equating democracy with freedom and it's not. It's senseless to say "we are there to bring democracy to Iraq", it means nothing. If on the other hand one could garuantee civil rights and equal representation at the same time they were installing a democracy, you might have something, but it's certainly not the case in Iraq. The difference between totalitarianism and the democracy planned in Iraq is that the majority class as a whole is the despot rather than one person. The provisions of the new Iraqi constitution, thus far, would make life more opressive to women, for example, than life was under Sadam. Is this what young mens skulls are being blasted apart for? -Glorious.

[The_Dark]

Just a question... How much stock do you own?

[Vater Araignee]

Scary you're an idiot.  My IQ is well above 160, and always has been.  I'd don't see what that has to do with anything but don't even try bashing mine when yours is 90.  It makes you look even dumber.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

allow me to reiterate "Grow up"

OOH a personal attack, I can let this slide, again cause you're new here.  But these really aren't tollerated here and don't go over well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess he thought you where insulting him when he complimented? Oh an inverse style of brain washing? :grin

[The_Dark]

You forgetting that when Bush took office.. that surplus was already draining. Clinton did a great job of getting rid of our debt but fialed to set things up to last. In the last year of his presidency the surplus was already dwindling at a fast rate.

No, I'm talking about the weapons that the inspectors found in 1991 that are not there now and are not accoutned for. The same weapons that every intelligence agency said he still had.

Exactly how is more rights than they ever had before worse than no rights at all?

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

***As for the WMD argument. Save it. Your blaming a mistake made by every intelligence agency in the world on one man. President Bush made claims based on Intelligence reports from all over the world and from every major agency. Your shooting the messanger rather than the source of the false message. And lest we forget... THERE WERE WMD's. There is no question of that.. the question is.. Where are they now?***

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bush said "they've got WMD, I know they've got WMD and if they don't I'll take the responsibility" Now, beyond this, It seems to me that if you're going to send some one to war you should be damn sure about these type of things...especially if you are striking first.

How can you say there were WMD? Even Dick Cheney has admited to the notion being a miscalculation- How do you know about these things and no one else? Are these the ones we sold to Saddam under Reagan? Look-that's ridiculous. Just go back and read what you wrote, again.

____________________________________________________________________

***As for Freedom vs Democracy and women's rights in Iraq.... If you can think up a better form of government than democracy that actually works on a large scale.. the world would really like to know because noone else ever has. Exactly what rights did women have before we invaded? The right to be raped? The right to sit down and shut the fuck up? The right to be property? I know there are concerns over what rights women will have in the new iraq... but some people seem to forget they had absolutly none before.***

____________________________________________________________________

No. You're misconstrueing my meaning. It's just that you keep equating democracy with freedom and it's not. It's senseless to say "we are there to bring democracy to Iraq", it means nothing. If on the other hand one could garuantee civil rights and equal representation at the same time they were installing a democracy, you might have something, but it's certainly not the case in Iraq. The difference between totalitarianism and the democracy planned in Iraq is that the majority class as a whole is the despot rather than one person. The provisions of the new Iraqi constitution, thus far, would make life more opressive to women, for example, than life was under Sadam. Is this what young mens skulls are being blasted apart for?  -Glorious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you're referring to my posts regarding this, you're missing the point entirely.

We are not there to bring democracy to Iraq. While that might seem like a beautiful thing to us and a good enough reason to go to War w/out WMD's it has nothing to do with why we're there. WMD's are not the reason why we are there. Screw intelligence reports, do you honestly believe this bullshit? These are things that we're told so we'll be more than happy to send our children to war. Children yes. We're talking about babies right out of high school here. We are teaching them lessons in life that they should never have to learn. What is it like to kill a man? Have you ever taken someone's life before? Do you think you could live with that easily? Do you think greed for oil is a good enough reason? As far as democracy and Iraqi freedom go, neither are compatible with their culture. Our government works for us, but will never work for them. We are not only denying them their way of life, but we have completely disrespected their religion, their culture, their morals, and their ethics. While, I personally don't agree with the way women are treated there, that is their way of life. It is not my right or anyone else's to tell anyone how to live their life or judge them. What's right and wrong for you is not right and wrong for everyone else. They believe that women are here to serve men. The women believe this also. This is THEIR RIGHT, yet we disagree and God knows what a PERFECT society we are and that we must be ALL KNOWING and JUSTIFIED.

Don't go on about life in Iraq as if you've ever lived there. You have no knowledge or their culture whatsoever other than what you've been spoonfed on by the media. Do you think Muslim women are treated any different here? They are not. They choose this way of life though, and have the right to choose. Yet their moral and religious obligations are different from the viewpoints of atheist America. We have completly and utterly disrespected the nation of Islam for the past 20 years, yet we bitch when they bomb our buildings. I don't see the Buddhists and the Hindus attacking us, but maybe that's because WE'RE NOT SO CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR NATURAL RESOURCES!!! America is a self centered country with very narrow views on how life should be lived. We're so self righteous it bleeds out of us. So when popular opinion can agree that the popular opinions of other portions of the world don't matter, we can sleep better at night for killing innocent people in the name of money.

As far as WMD's go, I was referencing our own massive stockpile of them and our hypocrisy in asking the world to disarm and destroy them. We are not the final say in the world, and would be better off if we minded our own business and focused more on our own rights, education, workforce, trade, etc. We'd be better off building our military instead of wasting it. We'd be better off fixing our economic problems here.

Where the Bush administration is concerned, I'm not happy with the war effort obviously. Most drastic economic changes however are a result of the work of previous administrations. It takes years of bad planning to reach the current state we are in, so you can't blame all of this on Bush when Clinton obviously shares a large portion of it.

The bottom line is, if you vote for a Democrat or a Republican it really makes no difference. They'll both cripple our people for the betterment of big business. It all comes down to greed. There are many ways our nation could improve not only from an individual perspective, but from a business perspective as well. These things take time though, and when greed becomes so insatiable that people want results RIGHT NOW, those who have money will make sure results are immediate even if it's at the cost of the rights we have, our happiness, and in some cases our very lives.

allow me to reiterate "Grow up"

I hardly think you're qualified to tell me to grow up when you've made no intelligent posts whatsoever regarding this topic other than lame attacks. Get an education. If your only purpose here is to be argumentative, I think you're the one that has some growing up to do. You could at least have some supporting arguments other than grow up or most intelligent thing you've said. As far as buying American goods go, my cash is spent here not only for the goods that I need, but to build our economy. This has little to do with supporting the motives of Corporate America. As far as buying food here goes, yes I'll buy food here. I'm a big supporter of the farmers that bust their ass all day so we can eat while they're also anally raped by our government every year. At least they have a work ethic, which is more than I can say for most people I know.

P.S. I don't even know who Liberal News Media is nor do I care. I don't use traditional methods to stay current with world events such as TV, radio, or newspapers. I prefer to research online, where I can get multiple world perspectives on such matters.

If you think anyone going to war in Iraq is servicing their country, you're a moron.

If this comment I made earlier is what upset you or anyone, you should perhaps re-read it. It says IF. Do you have any clue what IF means? I was not namecalling, nor was I attacking anyone. This was a generalized statement based on facts. Going to Iraq has nothing to do with servicing our country, therfore if logic leads you to believe so then perhaps you should check your premise. The truth might hurt in the end, but at least you'll have it.