Government Assistance (WIC,EBT, etc...)

[Guest Game of Chance]

That's what they say...but I have yet to see one. I have even worked at day care centers for a while and not one offered more than a measly discount as a benefit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wayne County offers Kidspace...that's the first one that I can think of. There are plenty more.

Lestat and Lilith, I have been to their home. They seem to do a good job of providing well for their family on what they have.  They are using their creativity and hard work to bring their children up well. Kudos to them. There should be more people like that.  Could they do things differently? Yes, everyone can. But instead of blindly telling them that they don't need this or that, perhaps you could point out more alternatives. I will provide some here myself....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, the original intent of my post was not a stab at Lilith, Lestat, or anyone. It was at the system itself.

[Guest Game of Chance]

I can't really voice a clear opinion on these issues because I don't have a lot of information.  I just wanted to say

Wow.  Steve I am really, really impressed.

Sorry to derail.  Carry on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks :blushing

[JaneDead]

That's what they say...but I have yet to see one. I have even worked at day care centers for a while and not one offered more than a measly discount as a benefit.

There are also costs related to working, like maintaining the appropriate wardrobe, gas money, the need for another vehicle if you are not working completely opposite shifts, the time spent together as a family if you ARE working opposite shifts, not to mention anything that is job specific like tools, additional training...if I wanted to take the time I could go on.

Daycare is ridiculously expensive and if the mother does not have the absolute need to work outside the home, she shouldn't.  Look at the turn that this country has taken since mothers began to feel forced to work outside of the house.  I believe that there is a direct link to the societal problems we have today and how our children are being raised by people that are paid to care for them rather than having a true and real concern for their proper upbringing.

That said, if outside assistance is necessary, people getting this assistance should be responsible and be sure that they are not using that assistance so that they can maintain a pleasurable lifestyle.  It should be used in such a way that it maintains the health and welfare of themselves and their children.

Lobster, shrimp and pricy cuts of meat should not be out of the question completely because, yes, their children should have experience with all types of food.  I personally am just now learning about some of these foods after having some very real feelings of being socially inept due to my complete lack of exposure to them.  No one should have to feel that way.  Expose the children to some of the more quality things in life as your budget permits, but not necessarily on a weekly, or even monthly basis.

Instead of convenience foods like hot pockets or frozen dinners, buy staple items like flour, vegetables and meats and take some of the time that is saved by not working and actually cook for the family - a lot of money can be saved this way, the food is much more healthy and it still instills a work ethic in the children.  Freeze the leftovers for times when convenience is a necessity.

Lestat and Lilith, I have been to their home. They seem to do a good job of providing well for their family on what they have.  They are using their creativity and hard work to bring their children up well. Kudos to them. There should be more people like that.  Could they do things differently? Yes, everyone can. But instead of blindly telling them that they don't need this or that, perhaps you could point out more alternatives. I will provide some here myself....

Netflix

Most libraries offer VHS and DVD's of even blockbuster movies for free.

This would also help with the education of the children, offering them an opportunity to check out books that interest them, expanding their knowledge and promoting an interest in reading.

If that isn't an option for some reason, 2 movies per week at your local video store may provide not only a bit of cost savings but also a fun opportunity to take the children out and let them pick out movies of their own. Rotating this between 4 kids allows them one special movie of their own each month.

Internet

The internet can be accessed at the library as well.  If the sales from EBay are enough to cover the cost of the internet each month - I consider it an acceptable expense anyway since there is an added benefit to the children's schoolwork. I don't know what kind of internet service you use, but Earthlink offers accelerated dial up service (thats what i use) for 9.95 per month for the first 6 months.  Cable internet and cable tv are not necessary or prudent in my opinion. Judge for yourself based on the benefits vs the cost.

Children's Christmas Gifts

If you do not buy toys for your children on a regular basis, there is nothing wrong with 2 bratz dolls for your daughter for $30.  A drum set for your son, as long as it is not top of the line and you know that it will be taken seriously by him - get it. Don't let anyone make you feel badly about that.  There is a correlation to music and learning. Knowing an instrument not only provides him hours of unsupervised enjoyment, but teaches him about the need for hard work and practice, instills confidence and coordination.  Just don't spoil them with lots of things that they are not going to use and encourage them to give up any old toys that they do not play with frequently - even if they are not broken.

Okay, I need to spend some quality time with my son now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

great post marblez

and i have to say: i worked at a montessori school (ages 6 weeks old to 13 years old) and i was not offered much in regards to a "deal" to have my son there. if they did, then i would go work there NOW and put all 3 of my kids there. 1. they would benefit, 2. i would have extra income i REALLY need. but in reality staying home actually works out better for me than working in regards to money/daycare. we struggle because of it but we would actually struggle more if i were to work... and my kids would miss out on being raised by ME.

but shit, daycare is outrageous and i have yet to find a job i am suited for that offers daycare, affordable daycare, or daycare at all for that matter.

and what makes it harder still is if you are a single parent. being a single parent is a whole nother story.

[damagedangel]

I tried to get on some sort of government assistance two months before my second daughter was born. I was making $11 per hour at the time, paying over $400 a month for daycare for my first daughter, receiving no child support for her. I was denied.. because they said I MADE TOO MUCH. Meanwhile, the lady who was there with five kids drove off in a brand new cadillac. What's wrong with THAT picture.

[The_Dark]

Well...

I like being on DGN so I am not going to say anything about my feelings on this.

I will say this though...

Lilith, I know where your at and I understand you completly.

[Steven]

what a great topic, with some very good points back and forth being made, and a variety of values being displayed in how certain decisions are being mad eor feelings presented.

Steve - I feel ya.

Lillith - I feel ya too.

Mustard - ditto

Brenda - you know I always feel ya...

Struggle come in many different sizes and flavours.

The fact that the welfare system is often not regulated enough and that there are many cases of abuse is true.

The fact that people who struggle are trying to give their kids the best life expereince possible within their means is also true and to a certain degree, admirable.

And the fact that its much more difficult these days to make and then hold onto a dang dollar is also true. "Middle Class" used to equate to a certain degree of accomplishment - even a certain degree of comfort. Now it equates to a pay check to paycheck lifestyle, most often than not leading that household further and further into debt via credit and refinancing.

There are many reasons for it.

The I WANT IT NOW mentality that we breed in America is a large part.

As is the outsourcing of jobs and industry.

There is also certain degree of logic to Lilliths purchasing decisions.

The internet for example - it is an everyday tool that every household really does need - it is a HUGE tool for improving oneself and networking for jobs and expereince. Our society revolves around it and its availability. Going to the library for internet access is not much of a reality for people with kids and jobs. Getting online at 11 PM after everyones been fed and is in bed - is.

A drum set - or anything like it in that it allows for continued growth and exploration and satisfaction and ultimately self esteem is absolutely critical to keep kids occupied and healthy and away from trouble. Sure as hellbeats dumping a child off in day care or sitting him in front of an

X Box. I applaud her for this. We had none of those things for us as children. But we did have dope down the block and various means of chemical escapism available to us, which embraced us and shaped us and nearly ruined all of my fathers children.

Netflix??? I laughed a bit on that one but I also wisdom in it. It cost s ahitload of money to go to the movies and Micky Dees if you've got kids. Cable costs even more. When you look at it in perspective - Netflix makes sense....soem normalcy...at a discount price. Entertainment in some form or the other really should be provided when possible. As kids our form of entertainment was to beat the shit out of each other.

And as for gifts - dont get crazy (I sincerely doubt that you do) but do what you can. I didint have my first Christmas or even birthday until I was 16. But I go tto watch everyone else have them - year after year. I remember very well the difference.

I dont know that I agree with Lilliths decision to purchase shrimp and Lobster (although I did admire her courage to bring it up - knowing that she'd be slammed for it - right on sistah)

But I dont know that I disagree with it either.

I was raised in several Barrios in a poor home with 6 kids. My father had a gardening route. We had no insurance. All of my clothes were hand me downs. My father busted his ass, still, we were broke. Breakfast often equated to something like a bowl of lentils and some tortillas. We were fine. I didint die. But it was hard to grow up like that. I'd much rather be a poor adult - than a poor child. An adult has some power of choice, and reasonable werewithal to stretch out from. But a kid is just a kid.

If lillith decides that she wants to create something special for her children even within times of struggle, there is a part of me that wants to celebrate that, only because I never got that as a child. I understand that. And none of us know the inner workings of her homelife - what she battles with - and how one action may offset another in regard to being able to just feel good for awhile and let her children feel good, which is healthy.

I say these thigns because despite my love for my father and admiration for his struggles and honerable attempts - he also gave in. We were a poor family, we had a poor culture, lived in poor housing, spoke in poor person terminology, never dremed of, never discussed, never dared to beleive that our lot in life would improve. In fact my dreams were often squelched - simply because that was not reality - it did not apply to us. And I feel that that is a tragic lesson to teach any child.

Lillith I hope things change for you and your husband.

I also hope that you use good judgement.

Because that too - isd a very important life lesson to teach your kids.

On paper (or even at the check out stand) everything appears to eb so clear and simple. But we dont live one anothers lives. I'd ventrue to say that here is much we do not know.

And I'm a taxpayer too, got a mortgatge, and blah blah blah, I get pissed off every year on how much the government takes, thats a real argument. The system is terrible, thats a real argument. People take advantage, thats a real argument. People get dropped through the cracks who need help, thats a real argument.

But as long as somone out there really is getting the help that they need - despite all the shorfalls, fine man, tax me. Help make somebody a better somebody. Maybe later on when I'm down, that somebody will help me.

[Ginevra]

I want to preface this by saying that this post is my *opinion*. It's not an *attack* towards a group of people nor AT any one person. It's my opinion and nothing more or less.

Maybe later on when I'm down, that somebody will help me.

I've stayed out of this thread so far because I have feelings both ways.

I've been in the position before where I had to apply for assistance while living in San Diego. I realise San Diego isn't Detroit. But I was denied assistance because I made too much on unemployment which was <<drum roll>> a whopping $400 a month. My rent alone was $465. I cut a deal with my landlord that I would clean and show the upstairs apartments that he rented out during the summer in exchange for a cut in my rent. That put me at exactly $400 coming in and $400 going out. I needed food assistance in a HUGE way and was denied. I was told to wait until my unemployment had run out and then I would be put on full welfare. But I didn't *need* that. I just needed a meal in my belly. It wasn't as if I weren't looking for work, either. I was going as far out as my legs could take me on my bicycle and putting in multiple applications per day (couldn't take the bus since I didn't have the cash for bus fare).

There was a Greek restaurant near me that I and some of my friends hung out at. I made a deal with the proprieter that if he let me sweep and mop the floors and clean the tables at the end of the day, then I could have my pick of the leftovers when the shop closed. That little bit of food per day was all I got for some time . . . in addition to having to fend myself from his greasy little hands.

In the end, I got out of this situation by taking a position as a live-in nanny for a lady who lived in a camper trailer and the job paid $50 a week plus room and board.

On the other hand, the house that I lived in with my ex-husband in Minneapolis . . . well, there's another story. Across the street from us was a small, run down hotel. There were people living in one bedroom hotel rooms with 4+ children *and* the parents. There was one man that lived there that had a Cadillac with custom plates, put 3 kids through college and was on welfare the entire time. He and his lady were always dressed very nicely. My husband and I struggled nearly daily to make ends meet and to be sure that we didn't get foreclosed or repossessed on something.

My brother dated a lady when I was in my teens. She had been stranded with three kids when her husband just took off on her one day. She was a stay at home mom, so she had no choice but to put herself and her children on assistance. The first thing she did was to be sure that she didn't add any more children to the equation. The second thing she did was to put herself through school to get an associate's in business while taking care of three little ones. Finally she was able to get a job. But she didn't immediately report her position to the state because she knew they would cut her benefits drastically, if not entirely and she wouldn't be able to provide a good environment for her kids. So, until her benefits kicked in at her job, she kept her mouth shut and kept collecting on her state benefits. Was she wrong to do so? Should she have just explained that Santa was going to skip their house for the next year even though the children were "good kids" in Santa's eyes?

There are so many facets to this topic that it's hard to know which way to approach it. There are always going to be users and abusers. There are always going to be people who get forgotten and drop through the cracks of the system. "Gawth" or not, I do try to be a good person when I'm able to without thought of "Oh, this will rack up points for me with Karma" or whatever. I try not to be jealous of others and what they have because that's just simply pointless. It's fun to wish sometimes, but that's really all the further it goes.

But when I go through the checkout at the market and I see someone ahead of me with brand-named dog food, fresh fish fillets, filet mignon (which is my favourite meat ever!) and then I look down and see my cans of corn, instant mashed potatoes and quarter inch thick pieces of pork or chicken, sometimes. . . . . just sometimes, I wonder what I've done wrong. Does someone dislike me so very much that I can't get a leg up? And then when they pay for it with an EBT card. . . . .it's just like someone took away my cake and the icing, too.

So I can see both sides of this; I really can.

[GreggZero]

I just have to say "take it if you can get it"

[JaneDead]

great post ginny.

and:

But as long as somone out there really is getting the help that they need - despite all the shorfalls, fine man, tax me.  Help make somebody a better somebody.  Maybe later on when I'm down, that somebody will help me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

isn't that the truth!

abusing something is one thing, and never good.

helping when you can is something entirely different.

sometimes people just need some help to get back on their feet, or to get on their feet at all.

when you make it how your life is day in and day out without helping yourself eventually - then you are not doing your part to help yourself.

it's nice to know that that help was there for me when i needed it and i have no problem with helping others if/when i can. as long as, like i said, it doesn't lead to it just being a way of life/abuse of that help.

[Steven]

Thats a lot of money.  There are companies out there that offer daycare as a benefit, though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

not many however

[DisturbedMania]

I, for myself, would not let myself go on government benefits. But, it is my decision for me. I was homeless and didn't get food stamps or any assistance for that matter, because it was a personal choice. I believe that all decisions that other people make are for their reasons, whatever they are. If what they decided was wrong karma will come back to them. I have found through all my years of interacting with people that if I am not best friends with the person I'm judging I'd better keep my mouth shut. Because I don't know the whole situation. That's the stance I take.

[Guest Game of Chance]

You are all still missing the point. Its a matter of personal freedoms.

I don't mind one bit if Steven and JaneDead decide to donate to a fund to help out the "needy". I just don't feel its right that I should be forced to contribute to it. Its bullshit that it should involuntarily come out of my hard-earned paycheck. Period.

[Steven]

You are all still missing the point.  Its a matter of personal freedoms.

I don't mind one bit if Steven and JaneDead decide to donate to a fund to help out the "needy".  I just don't feel its right that I should be forced to contribute to it.  Its bullshit that it should involuntarily come out of my hard-earned paycheck.  Period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

no Steve, I DO get what your saying, and I understand your stance.

and - I'm undecided on whether or not I agree with you, simply because I dont have alot of faith that enough people would contribute on their own to make an impact, which would reult in even more people suffering. I dont have a solid answer for you. I can say - that as I've gotten older and acquired more possessions income and have thus paid more taxes and face more difficulties in holding onto my dollars, I strangely enough find myself more empathatic toward those in need.

[Guest Game of Chance]

I can say - that as I've gotten older and acquired more possessions income and have thus paid more taxes and face more difficulties in holding onto my dollars, I strangely enough find myself more empathatic toward those in need.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's great that you feel that way. If you feel good about paying taxes...that's even better. Want to pay mine?

Whether or not I feel good about paying for someone's way in life isn't the issue. The issue is I'm being forced to do so. And that, is not freedom.

[Guest Game of Chance]

That unjust judgeing is what i was speaking out against, i knew when i typed my own personal situation i would get judged, but when you dont knw a damn thing about a person other then what you see you have no bussiness assuming anything about them and then judging them.

*side note*

other then what i stated here i am done with this tis the christmas season and i refuse to have my holly jolly mood ruined or my loose my place in the race to get back on my damn feet becasue of this

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just read this. Let's be clear...I don't really care what you and your family do. I just don't want to pay for it.

[Steven]

That's great that you feel that way.  If you feel good about paying taxes...that's even better.  Want to pay mine?

Whether or not I feel good about paying for someone's way in life isn't the issue.  The issue is I'm being forced to do so.  And that, is not freedom.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well, "feeling good" about paying taxes is a bit of a stretch Steve, thats not really what I'm saying, and HELL NO I dont want to pay yours. I'm simply saying that the system of taxation in and of itself - is not going away - in fact its compeltey illegal when you investigate its original intentions and purposes, but no one will be able to remove it, as it is the lifeblood of our governments funding.

And so if in the process - there is some good to be found - I can live with that.

And that without the social system - jacked up as it is - I do indeed very much doubt that there would be much left for thsoe in need if we went to a strictly volunteer process. People just dont care anymore on a wide enough scale. You cant just change the monetary portion of the system - you also have to change a value system in society - and no one would stand for that this day in age.

Freedom......is quite a speculative word.

[Guest Game of Chance]

you also have to change a value system in society - and no one would stand for that this day in age.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I dunno man...this is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius. :laughing

Seriously though, it is ironic that we live in a country that taxes us to death. American Revolution anyone?

[Lilith]

You are all still missing the point.  Its a matter of personal freedoms.

I don't mind one bit if Steven and JaneDead decide to donate to a fund to help out the "needy".  I just don't feel its right that I should be forced to contribute to it.  Its bullshit that it should involuntarily come out of my hard-earned paycheck.  Period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay I lied, I have more to say, the only difference is I had a few nice days with my family and friends too cool down and regroup my thoughts, position, and attitude/feelings in general toward this topic so it will not upset all that I have accomplished mentally and financially.

GOC, you seem to feel we are all missing your point, well I personally see and respect your point, you feel you work hard and you should be allowed to keep all the money you work hard for. You feel you should not have to pay taxes, to support the needy you should be able to choose to do so on your own. Which by the way I do recognize that you stated you did donate, and I give you allot of credit for doing so by your own free will, which to me shows you are not against helping those in need just the fact that you are forced to help upsets you. You feel you are not doing so of your own free will but being dictated to do so. I am sure it upsets you for many of the reasons it upsets every one else, as there are In fact people who abuse the system and use it as a way of life.

I believe your point has gotten lost in this discussion and perhaps ignored because of a few key factors in this discussion alone.

The first being, the discussions was a spontaneous one that did not start with any intent to plunge in to weather or not the system itself was right or wrong.

The second being your point was made following my post to speak out against a judgmental statement about people on assistance who buy/wear this or that, I choose to inform that there are some very Valid reasons, there is allot of thought and planning and scraping and budgeting to buy what ever it is a person (especially by those on assistance that really need it) buys, no matter if they pay with cash/credit or EBT food/cash. I did this because I do not deserve to feel bad if and when I do budget for something nicer just because I get assistance and others don’t. I don’t deserve to be judged because others abuse the system.

A third reason is when you first stated your point, it was clouded by asking questions that to me seemed very cold/attacking, “Don't you think its a little ridiculous for someone like me to have to pay for your shrimp or lobster? Do you realize that it is every other working person in the country that has to pay for your EBT? I can't stand hearing stories like this. Is it somehow not possible for you to get a job?” You implied we are lazy and don’t work which Is hardly the case, further more you directed those questions to a person who is on assistance and needs. You have also followed up by saying you don’t care what my family does, well if you don’t care then why did you choose to respond in the first place? IF your only issue is with the fact that you are forced to pay taxes and it goes toward helping the needy then why would you stress your point in a discussion that is about what “those” people do with there assistance with questions that are seemingly judgmental?

To me a non judgmental/attacking way to stress your point and perhaps get some answers you were looking for would have gone something like this:

“I appreciate where you're coming from Lilith. However, I here stories like this often and wonder why the person does not get a job, or why they spend money on things that are in my eyes not necessary. I work hard every day and I can not purchase shrimp lobster, to me it seems a bit backwards that often a person who works hard can not eat as well as those who seemingly don’t work. To me it is unjust when myself and millions of others work hard, are forced to pay taxes and can not afford some of the finer foods that many who are in the system enjoy. How do you make it possible to afford some of the things you say you do?”

I will say again your point is valid and understood, I think it just may have come across a bit harsh, at least to me any how. I would ask that you take a moment to understand my point and I will extend that if there is something you don’t understand ask away, I am for the most part an open book when some one decides to pull me from the shelf and dust me off.

[Guest Game of Chance]

I took a moment to read your post.

Two things:

1. It was meant to be harsh. I also don't agree with fucking little boys. If you had posted about fucking little boys, you would also have gotten a "harsh, judgemental" post out of me. And a call to the cops.

2. It amazes me that people get so stressed out over a post on this board that they have to "spend a few days with their family" to get over something that someone said.

I really do hate hearing stories like the one you described. I wasn't kidding.

It sucks that I have to support people that can't/won't take care of themselves, but what can I do? Keep voting Libertarian, and hope for a social revolution. In order for that to happen though, things will have to get worse before they get better.

[Lilith]

I personally don’t see any reason to be harsh to stress a point. But that’s just me.

I wish you a very blessed and fortunate Holiday.

Lilith

[Guest Game of Chance]

Thanks, you too. On me.