Islam/Racism/World View

[Rayne]

I don't know where they got it, but Wikipedia translates Islam as, "peaceful submission (to the will of god)."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is correct. I have many, many Muslim friends. ... joys of working with people in Dearborn.

[Onyx]

That is correct. I have many, many Muslim friends. ... joys of working with people in Dearborn.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you feel any hatred from them toward yourself due to the cultural differences? Are they offended by anything you inadvertently would do, and do you mistrust them in any way (any more than other people you know)?

Is it possible to get to know them well or do they tend to keep to themselves?

I have never had any Muslim friends or acquaintances and so I am curious.

[Hellion]

:devil All I know is , they think the planet is theirs.Other than that I agree with you Phee.

[paradox]

B)  I quote you to make a point:

"simply put, this is exactly the streotype that is propegated in mainstream media."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yup.

The First Crusade (1088-1099) was launched in response to Turkish Muslims cutting off Christians from "The Holy Land" that they had traditionally been allowed to access, Jerusalim and Israel at large, since the time of Constantine(312 or there abouts). The part that is rarely talked about in classes is that the Muslims were pushing into Europe and taking over land.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yup. thats what most monotheistic religions with military power tend to do.

to get back on track, the point is, yes, it sucks that people hate us. there are causes to everything, however, and whether or not you feel they justify the situation, others obviously do. unfortunately, not much will change this, at least not in the short run. the long and short of it is that Western powers have used and abused the middle east at their whim in the past and this has created a negative feeling towards us. the current situation isnt helping anything either. whether or not you believe the current war justifiable, you cant deny that we've basically fumbled it from the start, and now we've really stuck our foot in it, so to speak. no matter what we do, its going to be ugly and theres going to be alot of people that want to do harm to us if for no other reason than because we are the biggest and easiest target.

however, making broad generalizations about people never has been a good way to look at things and its part of what has caused so many other problems in the past. it requires understanding, even if it galls us to do so. you cannot fight that which you do not undestand. confusing islam as a religion with the is simply blinding stupidity. its quite obvious that these people are using islam and its popularity to their own ends, as many others have used many religions in our past. one can pick any religion on this earth and make its tenants look bad, if one so desired.

the dark, this may be what you are trying to say, i dont know. it doesnt appear that way to me. if i misunderstand you, im sorry. ive tried to explain my position as best i can, and that is that this isnt about religion, its about politics and war. these people use a religion as a tool for recruiting disenfranchised and disillusioned people who are looking for an explanation for their situation. they are given an easy place to rest the finger of blame. we are, undoubtably, in part to blame for the developments that have occured in the middle east to put it where it is now. we are not, however, solely to blame, nor are we deserving, IMO, of the response it has generated.

be that as it may, we are now left with little choice in the matter. we are now fighting a war we cant win. a war of ideals. the very worst kind of war to fight because they never end, and the harder you fight them, the more enemies you make. theres some hair-brained idea that we need to give thse people what we think is good government, when thats exactly what caused these problems in the 1st place. the West has been bringing their governments into the middle east for well a hundred years because they thought these people lacked--either in "civiliztion" or "right rule" or both. they have been forced, 1st as colonies and then as puppet states, by western powers, and now its happening again.

i dont in any way condone their actions, but, as i said, its important to understand, to see it from the other side.

we would have all been better off if we had left them alone to live as they determine. this is not the case, though. before any of us were born, those decisions were already made. colonization happened and this is the fall out of its collapse. violence begets violence. who started it isnt relavant. you can go back and back and back and find cause after cause, assigning blame as you like.

what it comes down to is that people hate us, they have their reason, real or imagined, and we cant change their minds.

but, neither should we cofuse these people with others who happen to have the same religion. the religion is incidental. its as much a casualty as anything else. islam is not evil. there are those who use it to their own end, just as there are those who use christianity to their own ends. this is not religion, its politics, old school.

[paradox]

Do you feel any hatred from them toward yourself due to the cultural differences?  Are they offended by anything you inadvertently would do, and do you mistrust them in any way (any more than other people you know)?

Is it possible to get to know them well or do they tend to keep to themselves?

I have never had any Muslim friends or acquaintances and so I am curious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

no. across the board. i happen to know many muslims, including my wife and her family. they are people like anyone else on this planet.

[Steven]

yup.

yup.  thats what most monotheistic religions with military power tend to do.

to get back on track, the point is, yes, it sucks that people hate us.  there are causes to everything, however, and whether or not you feel they justify the situation, others obviously do.  unfortunately, not much will change this, at least not in the short run.  the long and short of it is that Western powers have used and abused the middle east at their whim in the past and this has created a negative feeling towards us.  the current situation isnt helping anything either.  whether or not you believe the current war justifiable, you cant deny that we've basically fumbled it from the start, and now we've really stuck our foot in it, so to speak.  no matter what we do, its going to be ugly and theres going to be alot of people that want to do harm to us if for no other reason than because we are the biggest and easiest target.

however, making broad generalizations about people never has been a good way to look at things and its part of what has caused so many other problems in the past.  it requires understanding, even if it galls us to do so.  you cannot fight that which you do not undestand.  confusing islam as a religion with the is simply blinding stupidity.  its quite obvious that these people are using islam and its popularity to their own ends, as many others have used many religions in our past.  one can pick any religion on this earth and make its tenants look bad, if one so desired.

the dark, this may be what you are trying to say, i dont know.  it doesnt appear that way to me. if i misunderstand you, im sorry.  ive tried to explain my position as best i can, and that is that this isnt about religion, its about politics and war.  these people use a religion as a tool for recruiting disenfranchised and disillusioned people who are looking for an explanation for their situation. they are given an easy place to rest the finger of blame.  we are, undoubtably, in part to blame for the developments that have occured in the middle east to put it where it is now.  we are not, however, solely to blame, nor are we deserving, IMO, of the response it has generated.

be that as it may, we are now left with little choice in the matter.  we are now fighting a war we cant win. a war of ideals. the very worst kind of war to fight because they never end, and the harder you fight them, the more enemies you make.  theres some hair-brained idea that we need to give thse people what we think is good government, when thats exactly what caused these problems in the 1st place.  the West has been bringing their governments into the middle east for well a hundred years because they thought these people lacked--either in "civiliztion" or "right rule" or both.  they have been forced, 1st as colonies and then as puppet states, by western powers, and now its happening again.

i dont in any way condone their actions, but, as i said, its important to understand, to see it from the other side.

we would have all been better off if we had left them alone to live as they determine.  this is not the case, though.  before any of us were born, those decisions were already made.  colonization happened and this is the fall out of its collapse. violence begets violence.  who started it isnt relavant. you can go back and back and back and find cause after cause, assigning blame as you like.

what it comes down to is that people hate us, they have their reason, real or imagined, and we cant change their minds.

but, neither should we cofuse these people with others who happen to have the same religion.  the religion is incidental.  its as much a casualty as anything else.  islam is not evil.  there are those who use it to their own end, just as there are those who use christianity to their own ends.  this is not religion, its politics, old school.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this was one of the best posts I've read in a long time.

very well done. I like the way you think Paradox, and you seem to be very open minded, which I respect.

[The_Dark]

Paradox, my only problem with anything you have said is that you focus on the last 100 years. That ignores 2900 years of history. You’re looking at "The Big Picture" and I'm looking at "The Whole Picture" or at least trying to. You're also trying to only look at the political side of of things and leave the religion out. That can't be done with Islam. There is absolutly no seperation. Islam is the governing power over ever aspect of a Muslim's life... from thier politics to thier persanel hiegene.

Expansionism and Colonialism isn't just a Western ideal. How long do the Moors control Italy and Eastern Europe? How long did the Mongols Control Iran and Iraq? The Persian Empire? How many countries have the Palestinians been kicked out of for causing trouble?

The problems of the World did not start on July 4th, 1776. They started the first time a caveman was hungry and saw another caveman eating a piece of fruit they wanted.. so bashed his skull in with a rock.

We are all of us, human, and someday we will figure out a way to deal with that.

[phee]

Islam is the fastest spreading religion on Earth... and it expanded faster historically then any other religion on Earth (It was the entire Arabian Pennisula by the time Mohammed died actually) And this was mainly due to military expansion

[Rayne]

Do you feel any hatred from them toward yourself due to the cultural differences?  Are they offended by anything you inadvertently would do, and do you mistrust them in any way (any more than other people you know)?

Is it possible to get to know them well or do they tend to keep to themselves?

I have never had any Muslim friends or acquaintances and so I am curious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope to all of them. I work with a lot of the parents in my position.

I have been in situations where it seemed some Muslim's are nervous around me (like if I am speaking at a function in Dearborn) ... but I initiate contact and everything ends up just fine.

[paradox]

Paradox, my only problem with anything you have said is that you focus on the last 100 years. That ignores 2900 years of history. You’re looking at "The Big Picture" and I'm looking at "The Whole Picture" or at least trying to. You're also trying to only look at the political side of of things and leave the religion out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i wouldnt agree with that, but if you think so.

i am a history major, and europe is the area i mainly study, esepcially late antiquity and early medieval. im quite familiar with what you are saying.

That can't be done with Islam. There is absolutly no seperation. Islam is the governing power over ever aspect of a Muslim's life... from thier politics to thier persanel hiegene.

this is just not true. while it may be true for certain groups or individuals in islam, it is not true for all muslims. i also know some peopleand organizations who live their entire lives by the bible, but i wouldnt say that all christians do.

We are all of us, human, and someday we will figure out a way to deal with that.

i find this unlikely, given our history.

[The_Dark]

hrmm.. I honestly suggest if your Uni offers it, that you take a few classes in Historiography... Studying the motives and politics of the person writing the history gives one a different perspective.

As for the Seperation thing... Your not disagreeing with me.. your disagreeing with damn near every Cleric and political leader in the Muslim world. Your disagreeing with Islamic law and Muhhamad.

and dude.. we can hope... we can hope...

[Msterbeau]

I'm going to be surprised if this doesn't lead the US and Western Europe into some sort of war with the fundamentalist Muslim world. Not as if we aren't already, but it's going to escalate.

It's 2006, we've gone to the moon, invented computers that do amazing things, built buildings damn near a half mile high, have decoded the human genome..... and we still can't get along because of religion and politics.

Sad.

[paradox]

hrmm.. I honestly suggest if your Uni offers it, that you take a few classes in Historiography... Studying the motives and politics of the person writing the history gives one a different perspective.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this is a standard part of all history classes now. or, at least all that ive taken in the last 5 years.

as for "separation", well, i guess all the muslims i know arent musilms then. :confused

[phee]

this is a standard part of all history classes now. or, at least all that ive taken in the last 5 years.

as for "separation", well, i guess all the muslims i know arent musilms then.  :confused

According to a lot of Muslims

[Steven]

I'm going to be surprised if this doesn't lead the US and Western Europe into some sort of war with the fundamentalist Muslim world.  Not as if we aren't already, but it's going to escalate. 

It's 2006, we've gone to the moon, invented computers that do amazing things, built buildings damn near a half mile high, have decoded the human genome..... and we still can't get along because of religion and politics.

Sad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think its a Human problem though Mark.

If we didint have these issues, thered be others......its the way we are, and why I think we need help.

[Msterbeau]

I think its a Human problem though Mark.

If we didint have these issues, thered be others......its the way we are, and why I think we need help.

That's exactly my point. We've learned so much... and we've learned nothing.

[Steven]

That's exactly my point.  We've learned so much... and we've learned nothing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this is one of the reasons that I beleive we need a relationship with our creator, because our own history denies our ability to effectively self govern and nurture ourselves. We just dont do it very well and never have. To some that sounds rather desperate....but I dont mean it in a desperate way. I simply dont beleive in that which we've allready created....our own godhood, our own self worship....

[phee]

I am not sure my creator likes us....

[Msterbeau]

this is one of the reasons that I beleive we need a relationship with our creator, because our own history denies our ability to effectively self govern and nurture ourselves.  We just dont do it very well and never have.  To some that sounds rather desperate....but I dont mean it in a desperate way.  I simply dont beleive in that which we've allready created....our own godhood, our own self worship....

I tend to think exactly the opposite. Until each and every one of us humans acknowledges and respects every other human on this earth as such... we go nowhere. The fundamental core of our spirituality has to begin with our existance here on earth.

[Steven]

I tend to think exactly the opposite.  Until each and every one of us humans acknowledges and respects every other human on this earth as such...  we go nowhere.  The fundamental core of our spirituality has to begin with our existance here on earth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

good point.

honest question: if we have been a failure thus far as a species, and yet have "progressed" thus far as a species to basically enbd the existence of the species........what will it take to finnally force a change in our corruptible nature???

[The_Dark]

The most difficult part of Islamic Law for most westerners to grasp is that there is no separation of church and state. The religion of Islam and the government are one. Islamic Law is controlled, ruled and regulated by the Islamic religion. The theocracy controls all public and private matters. Government, law and religion are one. There are varying degrees of this concept in many nations, but all law, government and civil authority rests upon it and it is a part of Islamic religion.

Taken from Islamic Law

Islam classically draws no distinction between religious and secular life. Hence Sharia covers not only religious rituals, but many aspects of day-to-day life, politics, economics, banking, business or contract law, and social issues.

As taken from Wikipedia

[Blackmail]

Before I begin, I disagree with Phee about the Shah, sure he was bad. But most Iranians I know much preffered him to everyone that came after. You had elections and women had rights under the Shah. Anyway.....

Here are my thoughts and what I posted in another forum:

there was a segment on CNN as to why American muslims aren't protesting this. The main reason is that Muslims have assimilated into American culture, most muslims in the U.S. are middle class and are pretty well educated. Even George Bush has alot of Islamic support in the U.S. (especially among Iraqi-Americans).

Whereas in Europe the Muslims are often unemployed and poor, which has created a divide between the muslims and "the west" (see the French rioting for an example).

Anyway that was the case that a few American Muslims were making yesterday.

By the way, the problem isn't Islam or muslims - obviously - it's governments like Syria, Iran and terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah who propogate anti-western/anti-American/Anti-European/Anti-Jewish newspapers, television shows and text books. State controlled media is to blame, especially when those states are extremist like Iran and Syria.

Which is why there isn't people throwing bricks at the Danish embassy's in Indonesia or Nigeria.

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, if it is governments to blame (and we should include Hamas in that now) how do you combat that? Obviously dialogue is the best way but what do you do if talking does not work?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not totally blaming the governments. It's various reasons why things have gotten to this point.

- The U.S. and other "western" countries have done some controversial things in the middle east and things I don't agree with. Africa as well. So some of the anger towards the west if understandable.

- Some Muslims hate what they see on Al-Jazeera regarding the west despite their own governments being pro-western cultures, such as Jordanians - many of whom hate Brits and Americans with a passion but their king (abdullah) being a friend of the U.S. and the U.K. (he went so school in England). Same with Saudi Arabia, the House of Saud is in tight with the Bush family yet many terrorists hail from Saudi Arabia.

But that doesn't excuse the propaganda put out by state run media in Syria, Iran and other places.

What to do about it? I don't know but the UN has to do more.

The UN has to do more about the starving people in Africa, the UN has to do more to stop alot of crazy things that they sit around and talk about but do nothing to combat these problems.

If the UN cares about human rights, then they need to start acting like they care about human rights.

----------------------------------------------------

some must read articles:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,...2036284,00.html

about how religion is not what most Muslims care about, they care about politics

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,...2036285,00.html

how a bangladeshi went under cover in England and exposes many Islamic problems

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,24...2036215,00.html

about how many Muslims are trying to convert you to their beliefs thru violence and fear

[paradox]

that is a great post. i think it makes some points i was trying to make, only alot better.

[Aliester]

Al Qaeda is to Islam what the KKK is to Christianity...

People SO get the wrong idea about Islam. I was a practicing, (white), Muslim for a few years...around the time of 9-11, my life was constant confrontation with ignorant people...**I destroyed them alll!!!!!jk**

No, but seriously, even the things that Western civilizations consider to be wrong, strange or controlling...those are CULTURAL CUSTOMS...NOT part of the RELIGION

I have a whole new view of the world in a spiritual sense...so I dont take offense to what anyone thinks...well, I take offense to ignorance...but I havent seen too much of that HERE>..thank God; whoever she is

I am a bit Wiccan, a bit Islam, a bit Satanist, a bit Christian, a bit Buddhist...I am a religion salad :innocent ...wanna toss it...lmao :whistling

[Msterbeau]

Al Qaeda is to Islam what the KKK is to Christianity...

People SO get the wrong idea about Islam. I was a practicing, (white), Muslim for a few years...around the time of 9-11, my life was constant confrontation with ignorant people...**I destroyed them alll!!!!!jk**

No, but seriously,  even the things that Western civilizations consider to be wrong, strange or controlling...those are CULTURAL CUSTOMS...NOT part of the RELIGION

I have a whole new view of the world in a spiritual sense...so I dont take offense to what  anyone thinks...well, I take offense to ignorance...but I havent seen too much of that HERE>..thank God; whoever she is

I am a bit Wiccan, a bit Islam, a bit Satanist, a bit Christian, a bit Buddhist...I am a religion salad :innocent ...wanna toss it...lmao :whistling

You're pretty much Unitarian.. :laughing