Divorce Is Too Easy

[sass_in_the_pants]

Crunchy,

I'm glad you made this a seperate topic. I thought it was a very interesting question when you posed it in the other thread.

Moving right along...

I do, in fact care if two people I don't know get a divorce, because it does, in fact effect me. Just like obesity and drug abuse are problems that society as a whole has to acknowledge and deal with, so too is the failing institution of marriage.

And I actually derive no pleasure whatsoever in telling people what to do. I would actually prefer that everyone stop asking me what they should do and they should figure it out their damn selves.

So, if the problem is something for society by and large to address, maybe we should consider what actually is and isn't in their sphere of influence.

Do you know what people USED to look for in a partner? (I can provide the link to the studies, cuz I know you folks LOVE links and studies, but I'm lazy, so you'll just have to trust me for now)

Men and women fifty years ago listed as their top qualities in a partner things like dependability, and sweetness.

Now, people list attractiveness, and a good sense of humor.

Do we see how one set of qualities is more likely to lead to a lasting marriage than the other?

And so maybe society needs to FIX the problem it created, which is posioning our minds with what leads to happiness.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I'll never accept "studies" as a barrier to denying anyone the right to marry.

Anyone who knew Jon and I at the start of our relationship were sure it was doomed to fail. His bitch of a twice-divorce mother had the balls to say to him - right in front of me - "you're making a big mistake."

Fuck you, as if you know what makes a good fucking marriage, you loser whore.

Ahem.

And yes, we've had some difficult periods. Some I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

But we come through it, and become stronger.

I'm sure one of those "factors" has something to do with communication.

Jon frankly couldn't communicate worth a fuck for the first couple years of our marriage. Disagreements would become arguments then attacks because he didn't understand how to keep it to facts and avoid calling me a bitch when he didn't understand where I was coming from.

But then one day you could practically see the lightbulb go on over his head. And I swear from that day communication has been great.

And even if all those "factors" are present at the start of a marriage, lots of shit can happen that can fuck shit up. A "perfect" marriage can go to shit because of some new influence.

Nobody can predict it for sure. I don't care what anyone says.

Many true statements but they don't apply to society as a whole in the way that i intended that above comment.

The question posed in this topic has to do with "likelihood" and what might be done about it. Which is not something any of us can have a particularly accurate prediction of , or advise about if we only have the few relationships we have been in or know about personally to use as a guide. It takes a much wider viewpoint.

Studies don't say "X will happen for a fact 100% of the time if Y is present" (just as example) But they give general guidelines as to what is likely or unlikely to succeed. They don't say "no never ever do X or Y or Z" at least usually not. They just give concrete data as to what has and hasn't worked more or less of the time over LARGE swaths of life, not our foggy/fuzzy view of the world through our own personal (very narrow) lens.

Often i think the problem is i tend to talk in "the macro" terms of society, whats most likely or whats less likely. Often others tend to think in terms of their own personal micro-situations not actually what i'm getting at.

There are always exceptions to things, and no one can predict the future with anything close to 100% certainty. Its always a judgment call as to what risks should be taken, but ignoring complied, tested, wisdom due to the fact that we can quote anecdotal personal exceptions or basing our worldviews on just our own little microcosm is ill advised.

A study that says crime is up where more ex-cons live isn't invalidated because maybe i live next door to an ex-con and have had no problems. (just another example of bad reasoning)

[hunhee]

Well I guess I should of said commited as well, but I kinda thought that was a gimme lol.

I have seen alot of marriage's fail for many different reasons, but I feel if a couple is more spiritual they will look deeper into the word itself and recognize it for more than just a union of man and wife. If the marriages I have witnessed fall apart had both parties more on the spiritual side than the "logical" side of things they wouldn't have given up so easily....yes I know that there is always the X factor that can always be in the mix as well. But I also think that people are just to easy to give up rather than to work out thier differences. It's much easier for someone to sign a piece of paper than to face thier faults as individuals.

And if both parties are not commited in the first place than they have no business being together.

HA .. my brother was committed..so committed he committed suicide.. that to him was his only escape.. he didn't believe in divorce either.. the only thing he wanted was love, love from one woman, and devotion. He realized he wasn't going to get that from his wife.. he did what was the only honorable step for him. When he signed that "piece of paper" he signed his life. He knew that going in, and he was aware of the price and he paid it. I agreed with what Bean said, if you make divorce any harder than it already is, and trust me it's no walk in the park, there would be more instance of suicide or just as bad murder.

[hunhee]

no, to put it coldy, chances are only increased so long as the girl gets the guys money, and the guy gets the girls vagoo. this barter system must stay intact or all hell will break loose.

*rolls eyes* what if the girl makes more money than the guy? If my ex wanted to play more cards and bitch, he probably could have taken me for alemony. Who's getting who's money now? and I'm not going to say much to the vagoo part..

[Bpage]

Getting a divorce is NOT easy by any means. I honestly believed my ex was the greatest thing ever. He ended up not being so great (not getting into details here) so we called it quits. It was probably one of the best decisions I ever made.

Marriage, Divorce, Kids, etc. should not be controlled by or made more difficult by the government or any other group. People should stop bitching about the way other people are living their lives and concentrate on living a quality life themselves.

[pharoh]

HA .. my brother was committed..so committed he committed suicide.. that to him was his only escape.. he didn't believe in divorce either.. the only thing he wanted was love, love from one woman, and devotion. He realized he wasn't going to get that from his wife.. he did what was the only honorable step for him. When he signed that "piece of paper" he signed his life. He knew that going in, and he was aware of the price and he paid it. I agreed with what Bean said, if you make divorce any harder than it already is, and trust me it's no walk in the park, there would be more instance of suicide or just as bad murder.

Without doing a thread jack here and I by all means mean no disrespect to your or your brother but suicide is not a commitment, it's a cop-out. Who really knows what goes on in someone's brain when they take thier own life....I am stirring away from the topic, that is for another thread if you want to post it and I will gladly comment.

That's exactly what I said. Two people of the same faith share values just as two agnostics do.

As for my definition of marriage? An inherently tumultuous institution that people only want to improve for everybody by pigeonholing who should do it and who should not and for how long. It SHOULD be about love, and there are a lot more brands of love than the ones any single person is comfortable with.

Ok what brands of love are you referring to? Love of money? Love of security? Last I checked there really is not....the word love is thrown around way to much IMO. In general, people try to lump the bullshit in with things like love of money and love of security with something entirely different and put a little bow on a pretty box and what do you really have? Bullshit in a pretty box and a bow. Love of money is GREED. and Love of security is in my opinion being afraid to take chances.

I'll drop the same faith stuff here as well, because it doesn't do any good to talk about it to a bunch of heathen bastards LOL J/K

[Homicidalheathen]

I don't know about divorce being too easy......if your in a abusive relationship or just need to get away.....then It could never be too easy.

It is marriage thats too easy. Maybe people should have a waiting time and counciling first, I think people get married and divorced too easy these days.

Was just talking about this with $$ the other day......I will never get married more than this one time. If anything ever happens I stay single after this. Just don't believe in more than one legal marriage in one lifetime....but thats just me. I think if trivializes marriage and that it should be more important than that.

I know a lady who has been married 7 x. Once for a whole 2 months lol. I think it is a sign of emotional instability.

[Rayne]

We are No 3 for high divorce rates

http://www.aneki.com/divorce.html

does not surprise me at all.

Michigan is also a no-fault divorce state. You don't need a valid good reason to get divorced like you do in some states.

[BrassFusion]

Ok what brands of love are you referring to? Love of money? Love of security? Last I checked there really is not....the word love is thrown around way to much IMO. In general, people try to lump the bullshit in with things like love of money and love of security with something entirely different and put a little bow on a pretty box and what do you really have? Bullshit in a pretty box and a bow. Love of money is GREED. and Love of security is in my opinion being afraid to take chances.

I'll drop the same faith stuff here as well, because it doesn't do any good to talk about it to a bunch of heathen bastards LOL J/K

Men loving other men, platonically or not, for one. They're not allowed to marry at all. I thought that potential argument might be fresh in your mind... =)

Anyway, my point is that you can't define love for other people, and since marriage is SUPPOSED to center around love (that's what Disney wants us to think, anyway), you shouldn't try to define marriage, either. And I'm not just talking about gay rights, now. I'm talking about right to marry overnight and divorce just as fast because really, what's the big deal? It has virtually no effect on you. Don't say something like "society is gonna crumble if we let this happen" cuz it already is and it will CONTINUE to. Or, like Hunhee said, the rate of violent crimes may increase. Which is better, your feeling happy in a society with a lower divorce rate, or everybody ELSE being happy and alive?

For the record, I think good marriage counselors should be AVAILABLE. Pre-nups should be as draconian as any couple wishes to write them. I personally want to marry for life, and I plan to choose "right" the first time... but you never know if that shit is going to work out. I'm not going to stay in a soul-crushing marriage out of some duty to a higher power or to my family or out of the illusion that it would be "better for the kids" should I have any. And I think I'm like most people in that regard. Have some faith in the human race, man, they're mostly good people and they'll only improve as a whole if they enjoy rights and responsibilities hand in hand instead of being trained in cages.

[hunhee]

Without doing a thread jack here and I by all means mean no disrespect to your or your brother but suicide is not a commitment, it's a cop-out. Who really knows what goes on in someone's brain when they take thier own life....I am stirring away from the topic, that is for another thread if you want to post it and I will gladly comment.

Umm.. this isn't off topic. I never denied that it wasn't a cop-out, He was married, I was talking about cause and effect. His marriage caused him to make a rash decision.

[Dollardave]

My divorce was really easy cost me $650 and was done in 3months. I was seeing other people though already while I was still married even Tara. My exwife knew about Tara and this other girl Brittney I was seeing. I didn't believe in adultry so was not sleeping with anyone but I was kissing and feeling other girls up. I've always been really bad and been with 36 girls I have a serious sexual addiction and have always cheated. I used to do pornography with girls right before I got married while I was dating my exwife but wasn't married. After I got married though I only got a blowjob from a yahoo girl I met Heather. She was bomb shit and I couldn't turn it down but never fucked her cuz I don't do adultry. I can understand how hunhees brother killed himself. If my fiancee now left me I would end up back in the mental hospital or would take my dads police revolver and decorate his walls with my brains. I'm tired of being left by girls but I can understand how they leave me because I always was a cheat it was something I didn't have control over. It's different with my fiancee I got alot of respect for her, she fulfills all of my sexual needs, and I promised her that I would never cheat. That girl annie that went to the ritz with Thursday was getting pretty close to me too we were like slow dancing really close with each other and hanging on each other like 4 weeks ago and then I agreed to go out with Tara and told annie that we couldn't do that anymore. Now I told annie that we can't even see each other anymore cuz Tara said something to Homicidal Heathen about how "every time I'm not here annie comes over with alcohol and tries to get Dave drunk". Annies hot too shes got like a C cup long brown hair pretty face and loves her booze lol. Tara is an extremely jealous girl and when my exwife called me Thursday and Tara was in the car Tara told me that she did not want me talking to Sharlene anymore which kinda hurt because me and Sharlene dated for 10 years, were married for 6, and she was my friend. Taras making me get rid of everyone that could possibly be a threat and fuck me. Alot of girls call me too and I'm afraid that if they keep calling that I am going to lose my fiancee. Luckily she likes homicidal heathen and knows that we used to be together 8yrs ago but still lets me be her friend. I promised her that we do not do anything anymore and haven't in 8yrs. My exwife wasn't jealous like that so my divorce was easy. So the topic is right.

[BrassFusion]

So you feel it should've been more difficult for you to divorce your wife?

[Dollardave]

So you feel it should've been more difficult for you to divorce your wife?

Maybe because some people get divorces and end up wanting to get remarried. I had alot of feelings still with my exwife when I got divorced and she used to come over my new apt even after we were divorced but I was dating already and I was the one who filed for the divorce. I don't miss her anymore though even though we were still friends but if my fiancee don't want me talking to her I can totally understand. I'm moved on and very happy with my current girl. Haven't been this happy in a long time.

[Fierce Critter]

There are always exceptions to things, and no one can predict the future with anything close to 100% certainty. Its always a judgment call as to what risks should be taken, but ignoring complied, tested, wisdom due to the fact that we can quote anecdotal personal exceptions or basing our worldviews on just our own little microcosm is ill advised.

I don't disagree that studies can judge with some degree of accuracy what factors determine - in general - the possibilities of a successful marriage.

However, I don't think it would be right to use that as a determiner as to who can and can't get married.

The "exceptions to the rules" have a right to give it a go. I don't agree with taking that right away from anyone.

[Homicidalheathen]

But this is a perfect example of why someone should wait. Your moving too fast and things are sooo rocky, please take it easy I worry about you.

If you were to marry tomorrow I am afraid you would end up with divorce number 2 by next yr. So if you wait 2 yrs to see how things go then you will have a better chance of finding out if its right or not.

But I do hope things work out for you.

I don't know why anyone needs to marry more than once. Just live together.

Bimbo Brittany Spears is setting the perfect example of what NOT to do, one marriage lasting Hours the other a couple yrs or so......and she and people like her infect our youth.....unless you raise them right, like I did.

Maybe because some people get divorces and end up wanting to get remarried. I had alot of feelings still with my exwife when I got divorced and she used to come over my new apt even after we were divorced but I was dating already and I was the one who filed for the divorce. I don't miss her anymore though even though we were still friends but if my fiancee don't want me talking to her I can totally understand. I'm moved on and very happy with my current girl. Haven't been this happy in a long time.

[Daniel]

Personally, I think marriage and divorce should be as easy as possible. It is all about individual choice, right? I do not think anyone else should be able to legislate my life style. My point is that I should be able to get married and get a divorce the next day, or next week, or next month if I want. And then immediately marry someone else and do the same thing. No one else has to follow this pattern of behavior, but I should have the right to do so if I want to.

[violentivy]

-----> former battered woman

It is FAR too hard to get a divorce. I was forced to be married, beaten repeatedly, then when it was time to get the divorce, my ex was able to write all of the papers without anyone suspecting anything. He pitted my own mother against me saying that I was not fit enough to be a mother to my daughter and tried to make me give up my legal custody of her let alone any physical custody I had. He threatened that if I hired a lawyer he would hire one too, and I would go to jail for defending myself when he beat me. It was my own fault for not standing up for myself, but in my opinion, divorce should be much easier.

[violentivy]

I think this is one of those things that should not exist, divorce that is.

If you get married, that should be it, for all time.

If you can't handle that, then don't get married.

I will only get married once, if I EVER do.

... And that, my friend, is exactly what my ex husband said. You need to examine your thinking again about this matter, people change, it's the way of life, if they change in such a way that they are no longer compatable with you, you have to leave them, otherwise you will spend the rest of your life in misery, if you don't die of misery first.

[Homicidalheathen]

Just curious.....how did someone force you to marry them in this country?

-----> former battered woman

It is FAR too hard to get a divorce. I was forced to be married, beaten repeatedly, then when it was time to get the divorce, my ex was able to write all of the papers without anyone suspecting anything. He pitted my own mother against me saying that I was not fit enough to be a mother to my daughter and tried to make me give up my legal custody of her let alone any physical custody I had. He threatened that if I hired a lawyer he would hire one too, and I would go to jail for defending myself when he beat me. It was my own fault for not standing up for myself, but in my opinion, divorce should be much easier.

[phee]

Divorce isn't the problem... people are...

Making divorce harder to happen won't change people

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I don't disagree that studies can judge with some degree of accuracy what factors determine - in general - the possibilities of a successful marriage.

However, I don't think it would be right to use that as a determiner as to who can and can't get married.

The "exceptions to the rules" have a right to give it a go. I don't agree with taking that right away from anyone.

From a "spiritual" sense i agree. But despite me being HUGE on personal freedom this is one issue i think that is screwing up society as a whole (ill advised marriages).

I don't think there should be any hardcore 1984 style draconian laws that stop people from getting married based on some statistic. If people want to get married, who should stop them? But i do think there should be some sort of "make sure you've thought it through" thing in place. What that means exactly in terms of how it would actually play out in real life I'm not sure as yet. But it would include some sort of mutual-agreement, and consequences for a breach of that agreement. One that was spelled out beforehand.

Beyond that that "incentive" laws (tax breaks and the like) should not be given to people that get married without at least some sort of minimal (legal) agreement about what is expected from that marriage It would be mild, but something more than just "yes I'm married" with zero meaning attached to it. People that are serious about getting married would do it and it would be no big deal. The random idiots getting married on the spur of the moment with no forethought would be curbed.

None of this is particularly romantic, but nothing is particularly romantic about divorce and broken homes either.

Divorce isn't the problem... people are...

Making divorce harder to happen won't change people

Your right people are flawed / make bad calls / etc. that wont change.

But, laws, over time do change populations behavior. Thats what they are there for primarily (in the good cases), and they do,on balance, work. Not to say i know the magic formula for anything being discussed here, but there is nobility in the attempt to try and fix things or make them better rather than us just throwing up our hands and saying well "its human nature... so forget it."

[Shade Everdark]

Why make it difficult to get a divorce? The only reason that makes any sense to me is to protect the delicate sensibilities of any children that happen to be a product of a marriage. Even then, it seems, from my anecdotal experience, to be either the divorce proceedings themselves, long and dramatic as they are, or an insane parent who probably ought to be out of the children's lives anyway, that presents the biggest problems for kids in divorce.

Make it easy to get divorced. Marriage contracts, maybe?

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Why make it difficult to get a divorce? The only reason that makes any sense to me is to protect the delicate sensibilities of any children that happen to be a product of a marriage. Even then, it seems, from my anecdotal experience, to be either the divorce proceedings themselves, long and dramatic as they are, or an insane parent who probably ought to be out of the children's lives anyway, that presents the biggest problems for kids in divorce.

Make it easy to get divorced. Marriage contracts, maybe?

In a general sense, if people know its "easy out" then its also (usually) "easy in" (from a psych standpoint) would be the simplest reason to make it "harder". I'm not sure I'm 100% on board with that line of reasoning but i think its plausible.

I reference my initial post that if something needs to be made "more serious" its the getting in part not the getting out that probably needs more focus. Thus my quasi-required-pseudo-automatic-prenup suggestion. Which i think is kind of what you were saying here as well just with different terms.

[Destroit]

*rolls eyes* what if the girl makes more money than the guy? If my ex wanted to play more cards and bitch, he probably could have taken me for alemony. Who's getting who's money now? and I'm not going to say much to the vagoo part..

I second that. And then plead the feefth. Yessirie.

I haven't yet had a boyfriend that makes massively more than I do in money, also haven't had one that has been working as consistantly as I do. Also haven't had a boyfriend that's been able to keep up with my sex drive until now, so all that "guys just want pussy and porn all the time" shit is just that, bullshit. It should be "guys talk about porn and pussy all the time around other guys to hype themselves up so they seem all like a BAMF, but really never watch the stuff or fuck as much as they say they do." Personally I love it like that, I wouldn't have it any other way, the money thing that is. 'Cause then I can come home at night all like "I RULE YOU, BITCH, CLEAN MY KITCHEN" and then the boyfriend goes "WHO the fuck are you calling a BITCH?" as he walks over to grab the scrub brush .

Actually the one I have now, you know the disobedient kind, I dunno it's weird 'cause it's my first time having my boyfriend be "equal" in a relationship with me. It was horrible getting used to it at first...HORRIBLE (and yeah I realize since he's on DGN he's prolly gonna read this but whatev). Like I'd find shit that HE was doing "wrong" all the time and really it was just that I needed to figure out that I don't own him and that our relationship was actually quite normal....which sucks, but yeah apparantly equality is the way to go. I'm giving it a shot and so far it's working out great. As an only child I've always been in control of everything around me at all times, including all other people, so that was my big beef at first because he'd be like "well now it's not you, it's you AND I" and I'd cringe after he'd say it, not because I didn't want it to be "you and I", it was because I couldn't do whatever I wanted whenever I wanted which is what I've been doing my whole life. Even now I'm still getting used to it, but speaking of divorce, that's really what it takes: getting used to it and not giving up. There's my point I think. Suck it up, walk away, sit there and go "la la la la I'm not listening" and get over it. Be man enough to end arguements, even if you didn't start them or even if you did. Explain everything throughly and clearly, almost like you were talking to a five year old, and get every aspect of every variable out so that nothing is bottled in (which also sucks for me 'cause I'm good at not telling people how I feel). Just make it work and it will. Throw your arms up in the air though and say "I'm through enough is enough" and there ya go, it's Splitsville the very next day.

To me it's like running at the gym, it's easy to get on it and go for a little bit and be all "I'm fat" or "I'm tired" or "My side is cramping up so hard it feels like I have a little midget kicking me in my kidney" and then jump right off. It's hard to stay on there for a whole hour just running and running in pain and agony working toward your goal, which is happiness (well sexy body happiness, which is all I damn well need), while telling yourself "it's okay, keep running, it hurts, but you'll live....let's hope. I hope I don't have any congenital heart disease, because other than that I'll live through this and come out a better person".

And yes, I do talk outloud like that at the gym. It usually scares other people away, which I like 'cause then they're not all next to me when I'm sweating and nasty.

I'm not sure how I feel about it being harder to get divorced though, I really don't. I think we should leave it up to the people, I do think the divorce rate is disgusting, but I dunno. It's more on the shoulders of society and how we raise our children to think than the government. How can you tell your kid not to get divorced when you did it yourself?

[TygerLili]

I think they should make it harder to marry the same person a second time. My mom's cousin married and divorced the same man twice in one year.

Hello! There was a reason you got divorced the first time, and if you gave up on the marriage that quickly the first time, what makes you think that you or your mate is going to work harder the second time around.