From a couple of other threads "Gun Contorl"

[Fierce Critter]

An Opinionated Short Story from Phee:...I hope Critter will be proud of it's length.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have pleased the Epic Post Goddess. Enter "Epic Post Nirvana" where virgins in skimpy gauze scarves await to succor you with herbal fingertip balms, carpal tunnel reducing tinctures & elixers of questionable content & purpose.

[phee]

Do you live in a different country than me?  Guns are (for the most part) legal to own (for now) and I don't see anything like this. 

Maybe you should consider moving out of Ypsi?  :laughing

Yes I live in Ypsi... and a lot of people own guns... and a lot of people shoot each other...

[phee]

A coworker of mine said it best when she said:

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people.... which is why we don't need any more guns"

[Msterbeau]

The Native Americans are doing quite well for themselves these days.  Federal Settlements for their property have earned them billions.  I actually talk to the Federal Agency that manages their money from these settlements.  The Office of Trust Funds Management.  One of these days we're going to do business.

That's a pretty good justification for nearly wiping them off the face of the planet. :erm

Back to the thread:

Saw this today, thought it bore some relevence to the discussion here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/31/nyregion/31murder.html

I'm sure the anti gun-control members will blame this incident on a lack of personal responsibility. I'm also sure that gun-control advocates will blame this on the easy access to guns. (By legal or illegal means) I'm not necessarily on either side. But it IS tragic that a person with a gun killed a woman in this manner. How can it be prevented? (Please don't bring up the deterence effect of jail... idiots and drunks are not detered by that.)

[phee]

Interesting stuff Marc

And yes... The Native Americans are all better now I am sure... because ALL OF THEM are involved with casinos and not just a small percentage

[The_Dark]

Just a question... When is Itally going to start paying back the world for what the Romans did? And when do the Greeks start paying reperations for what Alexander did? Or the Mongols... when do they start making their payments?

[phee]

Just a question... When is Itally going to start paying back the world for what the Romans did? And when do the Greeks start paying reperations for what Alexander did? Or the Mongols... when do they start making their payments?

Not sure what this has to do with gun control... but I don't believe that are currently paying Native Americans off for anything that we did...

[odims_sphere]

I own guns and have never killed anyone. I also carried one every day for a year in a war and never had to fire it. It cirtanly didn't kill anyone on its own, there is always a brain that has to pull the trigger. I've heard of people killing each other with flashlights, should they be banned too? or strangulation with shoelaces. Is velcro the answer? Guns do make it much easier and more conveniant for criminals to commit their crimes but do you really think that if every single gun was distroyed there would be no more killing? the criminal mind would just move on to the next best thing, whatever that may be.

I'm not claiming to have the answer, all I'm saying is that taking away guns is not going to stop people who want to kill from killing.

[phee]

I own guns and have never killed anyone. I also carried one every day for a year in a war and never had to fire it. It cirtanly didn't kill anyone on its own, there is always a brain that has to pull the trigger. I've heard of people killing each other with flashlights, should they be banned too? or strangulation with shoelaces. Is velcro the answer? Guns do make it much easier and more conveniant for criminals to commit their crimes but do you really think that if every single gun was distroyed there would be no more killing? the criminal mind would just move on to the next best thing, whatever that may be.

I'm not claiming to have the answer, all I'm saying is that taking away guns is not going to stop people who want to kill from killing.

This is true... and I do appreciate the hunting aspect of it... but perhaps people should pass a psychological exam before getting a fire arm

[Guest Game of Chance]

That's a pretty good justification for nearly wiping them off the face of the planet.   :erm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its called evolution. I suppose I should feel sorry for the dodo, also?

By the way, interestingly enough, they are starting to buy back the land that their conquerors claimed from them.

[Guest Game of Chance]

I'm not claiming to have the answer, all I'm saying is that taking away guns is not going to stop people who want to kill from killing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right on.

[Guest Game of Chance]

I don't believe that are currently paying Native Americans off for anything that we did...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

http://www.doi.gov/ost/trustdocuments/Broc...%20brochure.htm

[Guest Game of Chance]

(Please don't bring up the deterence effect of jail...  idiots and drunks are not detered by that.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. It should be death for premeditated cases.

[The_Dark]

My point was Reperations to the Natives of this land and the special treatment they get. I don't agree with them at all.

[The_Dark]

What was that qoute from Ceasor....

Veni Vidi Vici

We (the europeans) came to this contiment. We encountered a people who were locked (by thier own traditions) in the stone age. We did what people more advanced had always done. We moved in and took over. We brought them horses, cows and advanced thier civilitation. Fair trade off.

[Fierce Critter]

Wow.

I am shocked by the "survival of the fittest" attitude towards Native Americans here, and that is leaking into (or directly driving) other comments here.

I really, really can see where that comes from. But it makes me curious to see how people who believe such things would react should a higher intelligence come to earth and start wreaking havoc & killing off humans "because they can".

As for guns, I don't like them. My stance has mostly been voiced well by Phee here. I do agree people have rights to them. But I personally think there should be some kind of control over how they are doled out.

You have to have certain tests to be allowed to drive a vehicle. You have to be able to see decently so you can see signs & not run people over. You have to be able to read signs & symbols. You have to pass a test that determines whether or not you can safely operate a vehicle. Not everyone, by birth, has the right to drive a car.

I don't see the problem in controlling who has a gun, either. I don't see why it's all so controlling or wrong to check the mental & criminal history of someone before giving them something they can kill someone with at the movement of a finger.

Sure, there are other ways to kill people. But I'll take my chances with a knife at the end of a knife-weilding maniac's arm vs a gun anyday.

[Guest Game of Chance]

Wow.

I am shocked by the "survival of the fittest" attitude towards Native Americans here, and that is leaking into (or directly driving) other comments here.

I really, really can see where that comes from. But it makes me curious to see how people who believe such things would react should a higher intelligence come to earth and start wreaking havoc & killing off humans "because they can".

.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Really? Shocked to hear those comments from a Darwinist? The reality is...if they were better armed, they probably would have held the invading U.S. Army off. Also, if their bodies had more of the right antibodies, they wouldn't have died from the many illnesses that the Europeans brought over. Like it or not, the society that was more fit for survival (at the time) won out.

In nature, when animals become sick or injured, what happens to them?

Last I checked those animals are killed and eaten by their predators.

But this is completely off-topic and could be spun into an entirely new thread.

As for guns, I don't like them. My stance has mostly been voiced well by Phee here. I do agree people have rights to them. But I personally think there should be some kind of control over how they are doled out.

You have to have certain tests to be allowed to drive a vehicle. You have to be able to see decently so you can see signs & not run people over. You have to be able to read signs & symbols. You have to pass a test that determines whether or not you can safely operate a vehicle. Not everyone, by birth, has the right to drive a car.

I don't see the problem in controlling who has a gun, either. I don't see why it's all so controlling or wrong to check the mental & criminal history of someone before giving them something they can kill someone with at the movement of a finger.

Sure, there are other ways to kill people. But I'll take my chances with a knife at the end of a knife-weilding maniac's arm vs a gun anyday.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can see your point here somewhat, but by no means should they be outlawed or will I personally stand for those rights being stripped away.

[Fierce Critter]

Really?  Shocked to hear those comments from a Darwinist?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Such statements are just plain shocking. I know you're a Darwinist, so it's not at all surprising hearing them from you. That's not what I said. But statements such as the ones made by you and by Dark are, nevertheless, shocking in general.

But like I said, I CAN see where they come from, considering a Darwinist point of view. I was just trying to not be so lengthy for a change. When I do that, it sometimes backfires. =)

[Guest Game of Chance]

Such statements are just plain shocking. I know you're a Darwinist, so it's not at all surprising hearing them from you. That's not what I said. But statements such as the ones made by you and by Dark are, nevertheless, shocking in general.

But like I said, I CAN see where they come from, considering a Darwinist point of view. I was just trying to not be so lengthy for a change. When I do that, it sometimes backfires. =)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sometimes its good to shake up the more conventional way of thinking.

[The_Dark]

It's more than being a Darwinist. I'm not one. I am a Constitutionalist. We are all equal and have the same inherit rights... unless your a native of this land.. then you get extras. Fuck that. I wanna use a gill net too. I want to own a casino. I want to do Peyote. I want the Italians and the Arabs to pay me reperations for invading my maternal homeland (greece). See, it's pretty damn silly.

[phee]

It's more than being a Darwinist. I'm not one. I am a Constitutionalist. We are all equal and have the same inherit rights... unless your a native of this land.. then you get extras. Fuck that. I wanna use a gill net too. I want to own a casino. I want to do Peyote. I want the Italians and the Arabs to pay me reperations for invading my maternal homeland (greece). See, it's pretty damn silly.

In this case I must say that The Dark makes much more sense to me then GOC...

If I understand GOC, he is saying that it is survival of the fittest is the reason why the west successfully defeated the Native Americans, as well as differences in their ability fight off disease...

If you go by this line of reasoning almost any and all racism can be justified, such as: Well we should have enslaved the africans because if they were fit enough they would have been able to prevent it... or asians are naturally better at math, etc...

This kind of logic can really cause a mess.

[The_Dark]

Hold on there Tex... Dont get me wrong... I agree to some extent with GOC. I stated in an earlyer post that the natives were locked in the Stone age. That their own tribal traditions was what had them locked in that way of life. The culture had stalled the evolution. A more advanced culture moved into the area and brought a more advanced way of life. Notice I did not say better, just more advanced. It was an inevitable occurance. If it were not the Europeans, it would have been the Asians.

As for slavery and the asians... your talking culture. Half of the slaves that were brough to the "new world" were bought from other africans. White men didn't invent war or slavery, both have been going on for a very very long time. Does that make it right? To the culture of the time, yes... To us, no. Does it mean I should have to pay the black guy down the street for what happened to people of his race 150+ years ago? I don't think so.

What I think should happen. People should get over it and try to live in the now rather than the then. Blacks should stop emphasizing that they are black and because of it need special handling. It's racism on themselves. Go to school, work hard and prosper. Stop asking for handouts because someone enslaved your great great great grandfather. Don't get me wrong. White people need to stop with the racism too. We need to work as a collective people. We are all after all human and we all live on this pretty blue ball in space with nowhere else to go. I think the Native Americans should stop trying to cling to "the old ways" and integrate into the sociaty around them. People need to stop emphasizing how different we are and focus on what we have in common.

Back to the topic at hand... Gun Control. It wont stop murder. Murder existed before guns. Guns don't even make it easyer. A sharp stick works rather well, as does a rock. I am willing to bet that more peoplehave been killed in history with a sword than a gun.

[phee]

Hold on there Tex... Dont get me wrong... I agree to some extent with GOC. I stated in an earlyer post that the natives were locked in the Stone age. That their own tribal traditions was what had them locked in that way of life. The culture had stalled the evolution. A more advanced culture moved into the area and brought a more advanced way of life. Notice I did not say better, just more advanced. It was an inevitable occurance. If it were not the Europeans, it would have been the Asians.

As for slavery and the asians... your talking culture. Half of the slaves that were brough to the "new world" were bought from other africans. White men didn't invent war or slavery, both have been going on for a very very long time. Does that make it right? To the culture of the time, yes... To us, no. Does it mean I should have to pay the black guy down the street for what happened to people of his race 150+ years ago? I don't think so.

What I think should happen. People should get over it and try to live in the now rather than the then. Blacks should stop emphasizing that they are black and because of it need special handling. It's racism on themselves. Go to school, work hard and prosper. Stop asking for handouts because someone enslaved your great great great grandfather. Don't get me wrong. White people need to stop with the racism too. We need to work as a collective people. We are all after all human and we all live on this pretty blue ball in space with nowhere else to go. I think the Native Americans should stop trying to cling to "the old ways" and integrate into the sociaty around them.  People need to stop emphasizing how different we are and focus on what we have in common.

Back to the topic at hand... Gun Control. It wont stop murder. Murder existed before guns. Guns don't even make it easyer. A sharp stick works rather well, as does a rock. I am willing to bet that more peoplehave been killed in history with a sword than a gun.

Gotcha thanks for clarifying... culture and race are different things

[Blackmail]

If there was no such things as guns there would be far less murder, I think the rights of people to not get killed exceeds anyones personal right to carry a gun.

[phee]

If there was no such things as guns there would be far less murder, I think the rights of people to not get killed exceeds anyones personal right to carry a gun.

I couldn't agree more Blackmail... You have hit the nail on the proverbial head...

I have not heard of a drive by knifing in quite a while... guns make killing people very impersonal... and if one person who has said right to own a gun accidently or purposefully kills or hurts another... they are then ruining others rights, just like if the government became too oppressive...