From a couple of other threads "Gun Contorl"

[The_Dark]

I have to disagree. Eliminating guns would only force people to use other means.

In the year 2000 there were 15,517 murders in the USA. Less than half were commited with a gun.

[phee]

I have to disagree. Eliminating guns would only force people to use other means.

In the year 2000 there were 15,517 murders in the USA. Less than half were commited with a gun.

That is just murder though here are some statistics from here

In 2002, there were 30,242 gun deaths in the U.S:

17,108 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),

11,829 homicides (39% of all U.S gun deaths),

762 unintentional shootings (3% of all U.S gun deaths),

and 300 from legal intervention and 243 from undetermined intent (2% of all U.S gun deaths combined).

FACT: A gun in the home increases the risk of homicide of a household member by 3 times and the risk of suicide by 5 times compared to homes where no gun is present.

-Kellerman AL, Rivara FP, Somes G, et al. "Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership." NEJM. 1992; 327(7):467-472)

FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:

In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:

373 people in Germany

151 people in Canada

57 people in Australia

19 people in Japan

54 people in England and Wales, and

11,789 people in the United States

FACT: While handguns account for only one-third of all firearms owned in the United States, they account for more than two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths each year. A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.

- Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. "The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries." Annu. Rev. Public Health. 1991; 12:17-40

To me knowing all my neighbors have guns weather I have one or not, would seem to remove a lot of my sense of freedom... unless I wore body armor and drove a tank

[Guest Game of Chance]

I refer you to post #3.

You cannot agree with the government having a lasseiz-faire policy with its people and be an advocate of gun control.

Your argument is moot.

All your bases are belong to us.

[Fierce Critter]

Murder existed before guns. Guns don't even make it easyer. A sharp stick works rather well, as does a rock. I am willing to bet that more peoplehave been killed in history with a sword than a gun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're kidding here, right? Guns don't make murder easier?

There was a time when a couple guys would drink too much in a bar, get in each other's faces and "take it outside" and beat each other up with fists. There'd be broken noses, sore hands, bloody lips & black eyes - and two living people in the end.

Now, one just waits for the other outside and shoots him.

There are also drive-by shootings galore. Road rage shootings. etc. etc. etc.

Guns make it SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much easier.

I repeat - I'd much rather chance the length of my leg being able to kick a knife from the end of some guy's arm than a gun at 20 feet anyday. Guns take away a fighting chance.

[Guest Game of Chance]

I repeat - I'd much rather chance the length of my leg being able to kick a knife from the end of some guy's arm than a gun at 20 feet anyday. Guns take away a fighting chance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And that may be fine, but I'd rather face a gun than give up my right to own one.

[Fierce Critter]

the natives were locked in the Stone age. That their own tribal traditions was what had them locked in that way of life. The culture had stalled the evolution.

I think the Native Americans should stop trying to cling to "the old ways" and integrate into the sociaty around them.  People need to stop emphasizing how different we are and focus on what we have in common.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please insert "fundamentalists" in the place of "Native Americans" and take this debate to a new thread on Gay Marriage, etc. =)

Just sayin'. =)

[Guest Game of Chance]

Please insert "fundamentalists" in the place of "Native Americans" and take this debate to a new thread on Gay Marriage, etc. =)

Just sayin'. =)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

lol...agreed.

[phee]

I refer you to post #3.

You cannot agree with the government having a lasseiz-faire policy with its people and be an advocate of gun control.

Your argument is moot.

All your bases are belong to us.

How exactly is my argument moot? And how am I agreeing with a Laziefaire policy, that doesn't make any sense...

[phee]

Please insert "fundamentalists" in the place of "Native Americans" and take this debate to a new thread on Gay Marriage, etc. =)

Just sayin'. =)

Glad we can at least agree on this...

[Guest Game of Chance]

How exactly is my argument moot? And how am I agreeing with a Laziefaire policy, that doesn't make any sense...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Um....the part where you said "Yup..." to "Governments should stay the hell out of citizens private lifes."

[phee]

Um....the part where you said "Yup..." to "Governments should stay the hell out of citizens private lifes."

Ahh I see the disagreement...

To me... owning a gun is not a private thing... as some of these figures show, people are in fact killed by guns, that makes it a public problem...

If guns were like say... certain sexual positions that are %100 private, then yes the government should stay the hell away from it...

BUT... when say my kid comes over to your house to play with your kid and the "locked" gun seems mysteriously to have fallen into your kids hands and he shoots my kid in the face while playing.... That is not longer "private" your private property has killed my child...

OR when you are cleaning your weapon and it goes off and someone returns fire... the bullits are now moving out of your "private" space... to anothers...

So no my argument is not moot at all.

[The_Dark]

You could also replace it with Wiccan, Budhist, Muslim or any other form of culture you want to.

There was a time when a couple guys would drink too much in a bar, get in each other's faces and "take it outside" and beat each other up with fists. There'd be broken noses, sore hands, bloody lips & black eyes - and two living people in the end.

Your leaving out the part where someone would draw a sword and kill the other one. Murder has always existed. Before there was gun control, There were laws against people having crossbows.. before that... swords. People always have and always will try to outlaw what they fear.

[Guest Game of Chance]

Ahh I see the disagreement...

To me... owning a gun is not a private thing

BUT... when say my kid comes over to your house to play with your kid and the "locked" gun seems mysteriously to have fallen into your kids hands and he shoots my kid in the face while playing.... That is not longer "private" your private property has killed my child...

OR when you are cleaning your weapon and it goes off and someone returns fire... the bullits are now moving out of your "private" space... to anothers...

So no my argument is not moot at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How is bad parenting or irresponsibility my fault? My rights should not be effected by either.

[phee]

How is bad parenting or irresponsibility my fault?  My rights should not be effected by either.

How is bad parenting your fault? If you are a bad parent, it is definitly your own fault

[Guest Game of Chance]

lol...agreed.

But if I were a bad parent, it is my fault. Not yours. My rights should be effected. Yours should not.

[phee]

lol...agreed.

But if I were a bad parent, it is my fault.  Not yours.  My rights should be effected.  Yours should not.

Right but let's say that a bad parent and your 8 year old blows away my five year old with a peace of their "private" property... Do you think that they should be still allowed to won said property?

[The_Dark]

We should outlaw lawn mowers. Just incase phee's kid decides to jump under mine.

[Guest Game of Chance]

We should outlaw lawn mowers. Just incase phee's kid decides to jump under mine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LMAO...dude, seriously.

[phee]

We should outlaw lawn mowers. Just incase phee's kid decides to jump under mine.

I have thought of that as well, but with something much more dangerous: Cars...

One major difference is cars are not made with the specific purpose with killing another person... niether are lawn mowers...

Are you arguing that it should be illegal to shoot someone but not to own a weapon that is made for the purpose of killing another?

[Guest Game of Chance]

Right but let's say that a bad parent and your 8 year old blows away my five year old with a peace of their "private" property... Do you think that they should be still allowed to won said property?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably not, I think they forfeited their right. Freedom is a two-edged sword...one being Choice and the other being Responsibility.

[Fierce Critter]

You could also replace it with Wiccan, Budhist, Muslim or any other form of culture you want to.

Last time I checked, Wiccans & Buddhists weren't trying to outlaw gay marriage.

My comment was triggered by remembering your using the argument that people trying to legalize gay marriage were, in some way, threatening your traditions. I believe it was a thread on EZB DGN, so I can't quote it.

Yet in this thread, you're saying fuck the traditions & culture of the NA's. Thus my comment.

Your leaving out the part where someone would draw a sword and kill the other one. Murder has always existed. Before there was gun control, There were laws against people having crossbows.. before that... swords.  People always have and always will try to outlaw what they fear.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Last time I checked, people weren't carrying swords around on their hips anymore, except possibly at Renaissance faires, where even there, they're usually required to be peace-tied.

There was a period BETWEEN the regular carrying of swords & the proliferation of guns of today. Yes, people still killed each other. But it wasn't as easy. Having to either use your own fists or draw a knife gave one much, much more time for thought before action.

[phee]

Probably not, I think they forfeited their right.  Freedom is a two-edged sword...one being Choice and the other being Responsibility.

I think we are beginning to reach common ground

[Guest Game of Chance]

Are you arguing that it should be illegal to shoot someone but not to own a weapon that is made for the purpose of killing another?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm arguing that I don't care what its used for...people should be free to choose, until they fuck up. And if we blow up the world, so be it. Another species will come in our place.

[phee]

I'm arguing that I don't care what its used for...people should be free to choose, until they fuck up.  And if we blow up the world, so be it.  Another species will come in our place.

Yay!!! Lol

[The_Dark]

phee... you know those people usually go to jail after something like that happens.