O F**K

[lippy]

Hey, I think he's doing a good thing with signing it again. Way to go Bush!!!

(See, I support you. No need to look around and suspect me of anything. *wink wink*)

[phee]

:grin

Hey, I think he's doing a good thing with signing it again.  Way to go Bush!!!

(See, I support you.  No need to look around and suspect me of anything.  *wink wink*)

[Blackmail]

I have a better idea.  Let's not relax... the minute we do we're on the slippery slope to being just like China.  No thanks. 

If you don't mind giving up your rights, don't complain when you find they're all gone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The patriot act has not and will not affect anyone on this board or 99.9% of all message boards on the internet.

lighten up francis.

[phee]

Is that an acutal figure?

[Blackmail]

Is that an acutal figure?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

is acutal an actual word?

[phee]

In my mind?

[Blackmail]

Anyway I am still wondering why people are crying over this. I've seen nothing to indicate that the partiot act is illegal and I've seen nothing to indicate it has impeded any average person's life. I know it has helped to catch terrorists.

So I fail to see why people are up in arms about something that affects very very few people yet has probably saved lives. The NSA is not watching to see what you are buying at the grocery store and no one is losing any "rights".

[phee]

Anyway I am still wondering why people are crying over this.  I've seen nothing to indicate that the partiot act is illegal and I've seen nothing to indicate it has impeded any average person's life.  I know it has helped to catch terrorists.   

So I fail to see why people are up in arms about something that affects very very few people yet has probably saved lives.    The NSA is not watching to see what you are buying at the grocery store and no one is losing any "rights".

how do you know?

[Blackmail]

how do you know?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well since you are part of the people all offended over the patriot act, show me some evidence as to why you are upset.

Do you have any?

[phee]

The act seems to compare with other small safety measures throughout both U.S. and world history that slowly remove peoples rights and privacy... most of the time when peoples freedoms are removed they are not removed by some obvious gesture, or something would prevent it... it happens like this.... little by little, so most people barely notice until it is too late...

[torn asunder]

The act seems to compare with other small safety measures throughout both U.S. and world history that slowly remove peoples rights and privacy... most of the time when peoples freedoms are removed they are not removed by some obvious gesture, or something would prevent it... it happens like this.... little by little, so most people barely notice until it is too late...

well said...

[Blackmail]

The act seems to compare with other small safety measures throughout both U.S. and world history that slowly remove peoples rights and privacy... most of the time when peoples freedoms are removed they are not removed by some obvious gesture, or something would prevent it... it happens like this.... little by little, so most people barely notice until it is too late...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

give me an example of someone losing a right because of the patriot act. So far I see a lot of huffing over nothing except some general idea of "losing individual rights" yet when challenged in court, most of the patriot act held up. So again, what exactly do you oppose - in specifics ?

[The Void]

I had written my representative and senators at the time the provisions were up for renewal and I did not want them renewed.

This motherfucker is out to make us a police state given any kind of crisis, even something as trumped up as this Avian flu bullshit fiasco that he's trying to get going as well.

He has admitted to the fact that he will instate Marshall Law if Avian flu strikes a particular town or state. fuck that.

But I don't want to get too anti-Bush or left to deter from the Partriot Act issue. I was opposed to many things in the bill because one of them being domestic terrorism, has gone to extremes.

Protestors who want to conduct peaceful protests and have permissions and other permits have been arrested and hurded up like cattle and detained without reason for 48 hours or more. This is but one issue at stake.

A woman wanted to pay off her credit cards and was not allowed to make an extra payment by Homeland Security for reasons unknown. It's fucking stupidity at its finest.

Homeland Security is run by some dude who looks like he rolled out from under a cardboard box in an alley. Everyone in this administration, save for Colon Powell who was smart enough to get out, is a puppet and an idiot.

Well, may be Rumsfeld isn't an idiot, in fact that motherfucker knows what he's doing and tries to get away with a lot. In 1997 he was on the board of directors for the manufacturer of the bird flu medicine Tamiflu. When he came into the Bush admin,. he was forced to sell his 91 million in shares. I guess it would have looked bad huh?

[Blackmail]

Can you provide a link to your examples? I did a google search and couldn't find anything.

[The Void]

Can you provide a link to your examples?  I did a google search and couldn't find anything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I actually printed out one of the articles yesterday on Rumsfeld. it's at home and I am not at home at the moment. I was searching for things on Avian flu and I really had to dig, so a 5 minute Google did not do it. i'll try to get the article at home and come back and provide a link if I rememeber to do so.

[Blackmail]

who was the article written by that you claim to have at home?

[The Void]

who was the article written by that you claim to have at home?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Donald Rumsfeld and his association with Gilead back in 1997. That's all I recall off the top of my head. If this is going to become an attack on me personally though, I won't bother to look at home for what I printed out yesterday.

I agree that when talking politically things should be backed up, I do not disagree with you there, but I already stated that if I had time and remembered (I haven't visited DGN in months) I would come back and post a link.

That is the best I can do to give you an answer for the moment. I hope this does not escalate into something I had no intention of when I replied to this thread. Real life has enough drama in it.

[Blackmail]

Donald Rumsfeld and his association with Gilead back in 1997.  That's all I recall off the top of my head.  If this is going to become an attack on me personally though, I won't bother to look at home for what I printed out yesterday.

I agree that when talking politically things should be backed up, I do not disagree with you there, but I already stated that if I had time and remembered (I haven't visited DGN in months) I would come back and post a link. 

That is the best I can do to give you an answer for the moment. I hope this does not escalate into something I had no intention of when I replied to this thread.  Real life has enough drama in it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just asked for a source.

Besides, I am not as concerned about the Rumsfeld stuff (he's a jackass) as much as the stuff related to the patriot Act you mentioned. If true, you might have more a case to hate the patriot act. As it stands now people are doing alot of complaining yet their lives are no different now than they were under Clinton, Bush Sr, Reagan or Carter.

[torn asunder]

I just asked for a source. 

Besides, I am not as concerned about the Rumsfeld stuff (he's a jackass) as much as the stuff related to the patriot Act you mentioned.  If true, you might have more a case to hate the patriot act.    As it stands now people are doing alot of complaining yet their lives are no different now than they were under Clinton, Bush Sr, Reagan or Carter.

from what i see, it's not day-to-day practical living issue, it's the principle people take issue with, and nobody needs a source for that... it's called an "opinion" for a reason... :erm

[The Void]

Well, I certainly agree with the issues being ongoing, as in not specificly related to the Bush administration. they just seem less proficient at hiding things and more balls to the wall in voilating rights in the open.

At any rate, ok, now that you asked about the Patriot Act comment I found something, but I must preface it with some important points:

I had downloaded about 3 months ago an ACLU paper on the events that happened at the last Republican National Convention in NY. For some strange reason that particular paper is no longer available for download. I have found an alkternative that MIGHT state some issues going on, however I have not read this paper yet on the anti-war protest.

I will also state that I am not a huge fan of the ACLU.

Also, the paper pertaining to the Rep. Nat. Convention was so important (I have a hardcopy at home somewhere) that it had witness accounts from people who had simply walked on the street and were not involved in protests who had been coralled in plastic nets without warning to cease and desist and leave the area.

Accounts come from people in NY that day as far away as California and even those visiting from Australia. it was a nightmare for those going to and from work in NY and going about their daily business since if they happened to be on the same street as the protestors they were detained in a dirty subway/bus terminal covered in grease with no bathrooms or seats. They were also not told why they were detained even after asking many times. People also had the plastic 'handcuffs' on that were left on for 24+ hours and some people had injuries as a result. Those are not supposed to be permanent cuffs.

Anyway, here is a DIFFERENT report issued by the ACLU on protesting and arrests that happened at a different event. If I ever find the one on the Rep. National Convention put out by ACLU, with actual accounts from hundreds of people, it's a shocking read.

In the meantime, this MIGHT have similarities: Anti-war protest arrests report. ACLU

[Blackmail]

from what i see, it's not day-to-day practical living issue, it's the principle people take issue with, and nobody needs a source for that...  it's called an "opinion" for a reason... :erm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't ask for a source to back up an opinion, I asked for a source to back up specific stories mentioned above.

[torn asunder]

and i was referring to the general negative opinion of the patriot act, and not any specific stories. i guess we can ignore each other, then...

[Blackmail]

Well, I certainly agree with the issues being ongoing, as in not specificly related to the Bush administration. they just seem less proficient at hiding things and more balls to the wall in voilating rights in the open. 

At any rate, ok, now that you asked about the Patriot Act comment I found something, but I must preface it with some important points:

I had downloaded about 3 months ago an ACLU paper on the events that happened at the last Republican National Convention in NY.  For some strange reason that particular paper is no longer available for download.  I have found an alkternative that MIGHT state some issues going on, however I have not read this paper yet on the anti-war protest.

I will also state that I am not a huge fan of the ACLU.

Also, the paper pertaining to the Rep. Nat. Convention was so important (I have a hardcopy at home somewhere) that it had witness accounts from people who had simply walked on the street and were not involved in protests who had been coralled in plastic nets without warning to cease and desist and leave the area. 

Accounts come from people in NY that day as far away as California and even those visiting from Australia. it was a nightmare for those going to and from work in NY and going about their daily business since if they happened to be on the same street as the protestors they were detained in a dirty subway/bus terminal covered in grease with no bathrooms or seats.  They were also not told why they were detained even after asking many times.  People also had the plastic 'handcuffs' on that were left on for 24+ hours and some people had injuries as a result.  Those are not supposed to be permanent cuffs. 

Anyway, here is a DIFFERENT report issued by the ACLU on protesting and arrests that happened at a different event.  If I ever find the one on the Rep. National Convention put out by ACLU, with actual accounts from hundreds of people, it's a shocking read.

In the meantime, this MIGHT have similarities: Anti-war protest arrests report. ACLU

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I completey hate the ACLU, nonetheless I did read the link you gave. It featured articles from a left wing newspaper - the New York Times......nonetheless I read the articles (took some squinting) and it said a New York judge revoked a permit to protest and I didn't see anything about the Patriot act being mentioned.

EDIT: Ok I see it was a federal judge. Still I see nothing about the Patriot Act.

[Blackmail]

and i was referring to the general negative opinion of the patriot act, and not any specific stories. i guess we can ignore each other, then...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please point to a instance where I asked for a source in relation to an opinion. Thanks.

[The Void]

I completey hate the ACLU, nonetheless I did read the link you gave.    It featured articles from a left wing newspaper - the New York Times......nonetheless I read the articles (took some squinting) and it said a New York judge revoked a permit to protest and I didn't see anything about the Patriot act being mentioned.

EDIT: Ok I see it was a federal judge.  Still I see nothing about the Patriot Act.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are on a tangent and are not reading. I was trying to appease you with an alternative but you seem to just want to slice and dice all those in your wake.

I will do a diligent search for the report regarding the Rep. National Convention and the police issues, arrests and first-hand accounts of American citizens and place that link here.

I stated that I had not read the article I posted. You seem to not be reading anything I say because I am trying to be very specific with you because again, all you 'seem' to want to do is slice and dice people today.

Granted maybe this is a bad day for you. I will do my best to find the paper I spoke of and reference it here, but I don't dance a little dance for anyone but myself.

P.S. The Patriot Act allows shit like this to happen and does not have to be specifically mentioned for those with a mind to make the connection.