Murder

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

ok...and we are in our 2nd spin-off of my "Necessary Evils" thread, and since I do not wish to derail that thread too much, I brought the related topic here.

Can certain, rare cases of murder be considered art?

I say yes, because we already condone it, we just don't wish to admit it.

Horror movies

Macabre Images

Violent Video Games

Lyrics in music that talk about nothing BUT murder

We have, for decades, embrace and condoned a very destructive veiwpoint....we've already condoned it's imagery as an art, so why will we now take an opposite view to what many of us have enjoyed already??

[phee]

The deeper question here is not if murder is art..... but it comes down to the age old question "What is art?"

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

The deeper question here is not if murder is art..... but it comes down to the age old question "What is art?"

art can be anything you desire it to be, really....but I was just trying to skim the surface, phee...lol...we get TOO philosophical....we might end up like "Gas Prices"...sky high and locked down....

[phee]

art can be anything you desire it to be, really....but I was just trying to skim the surface, phee...lol...we get TOO philosophical....we might end up like "Gas Prices"...sky high and locked down....

So by your definition, no one can answer the question in the thread topic but you.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

So by your definition, no one can answer the question in the thread topic but you.

no....and I hope the pm I sent you will clarify what I am trying to do....because I do thing we might have missed each others point, to a degree.

I hope these following images will clarify, to the public, what I am trying to convey here....

Many would consider those shots art, and the scenes they convey are scenes of murder.

[Onyx]

Sometimes I like a good horror film, doesn't mean the actors or writers are guilty of murder. Sometimes the themes have a deeper meaning.

Blurring those lines between fantasy and reality is the stuff of psychosis, nothing to do with art.

[freydis]

The act of murder itself is not art.

Art is creation. Murder is destruction.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

The act of murder itself is not art.

Art is creation. Murder is destruction.

and...according to certain views...you can create nothing without destroying something first.....wheither it be a simple shape from construction paper to complex sculptures from solid marble....you have to destroy one thing to create another....that concept has been around for millenia +.

almost every major mythology starts with the MURDER of some much larger being to create the whole of existance.

There is murder to create leather items, snake skin boots, etc.

There was murder to create some of the first weapons.

We condone murder as an art in our horror movies, because many of us consider George Romero an artist.

I'm not saying that you SHOULD go murder in the name of art....but I am saying, IMO, that you cannot create anything without destroying something first....and if you can see murder as the ultimate form of destruction...then one could also say that, in rare cases, it becomes the ultimate form of art.

[phee]

When it is talked about in the fashion, anything that anyone does can be considered art. From paintings to murder to sneezing.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

When it is talked about in the fashion, anything that anyone does can be considered art. From paintings to murder to sneezing.

LOL...PHEE!!!....CAN WE START A SERIES OF SNEEZE ART????

[phee]

LOL...PHEE!!!....CAN WE START A SERIES OF SNEEZE ART????

I am sure someone has.... heh

[freydis]

and...according to certain views...you can create nothing without destroying something first.....wheither it be a simple shape from construction paper to complex sculptures from solid marble....you have to destroy one thing to create another....that concept has been around for millenia +

Where you're talking about movies and music about murder, and then trying to equate the act itself to art.... the movies, the music, the books.... *those* are art. The actual, real, physical act of murder isn't art. Besides, the books, the music..... it's a romanticised version of murder. The act itself creates nothing. Even when you use a piece of solid marble, you transmute one raw piece of material into something it wasn't, something greater than it was. Turning a breathing thing into raw meat is breaking that thing down, making it something less, not something greater. Comparing murder to the creation of a great sculpture is not an equal comparison. You havent created something, you've merely destroyed something. Besides, when one creates, they have an end result, an expression in mind. Motivation for the act of murder is rarely one of creation, but of the desire for someone to stop existing. That, or the desire to play in someone's insides. Art is a higher instinct, a higher aspiration. Murder is a very base one, which rarely comes from aesthetic inspiration.

[phee]

Now perhaps a deeper question is.... can it be beautiful, but not necessarily being art?

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Where you're talking about movies and music about murder, and then trying to equate the act itself to art.... the movies, the music, the books.... *those* are art. The actual, real, physical act of murder isn't art. Besides, the books, the music..... it's a romanticised version of murder. The act itself creates nothing. Even when you use a piece of solid marble, you transmute one raw piece of material into something it wasn't, something greater than it was. Turning a breathing thing into raw meat is breaking that thing down, making it something less, not something greater. Comparing murder to the creation of a great sculpture is not an equal comparison. You havent created something, you've merely destroyed something. Besides, when one creates, they have an end result, an expression in mind. Motivation for the act of murder is rarely one of creation, but of the desire for someone to stop existing. That, or the desire to play in someone's insides. Art is a higher instinct, a higher aspiration. Murder is a very base one, which rarely comes from aesthetic inspiration.

romanticised?...I think maybe we need to trade reading lists.....

you talk of transmuting a piece of raw material into something that it wasn't, something greater then it was....can this view not be taken with murder? I am taking an ordinary human and making them into something shocking, taking someone that may never be noticed and turning them into front page news.

and DESIRE is an expression, wheither it be the desire to bring life into the world, or take it out of the world. I have seen much art, and in the 80's and 90's, most of your art students, least in the galleries I have witnessed, weren't really working on "a higher instinct", unless I missed what the white underside of a watch upon white cloth was supposed to mean.

and you talk about murder RARELY coming from aesthetic inspiration...well..I want to talk about those RARE cases....not the every day stuff...I'm talking about the guy who flays the skin from his victims and spreads it out like a set of wings....thats the guy I am talking about.

[freydis]

romanticised?...I think maybe we need to trade reading lists.....

you talk of transmuting a piece of raw material into something that it wasn't, something greater then it was....can this view not be taken with murder? I am taking an ordinary human and making them into something shocking, taking someone that may never be noticed and turning them into front page news.

and DESIRE is an expression, wheither it be the desire to bring life into the world, or take it out of the world. I have seen much art, and in the 80's and 90's, most of your art students, least in the galleries I have witnessed, weren't really working on "a higher instinct", unless I missed what the white underside of a watch upon white cloth was supposed to mean.

and you talk about murder RARELY coming from aesthetic inspiration...well..I want to talk about those RARE cases....not the every day stuff...I'm talking about the guy who flays the skin from his victims and spreads it out like a set of wings....thats the guy I am talking about.

You're not going to find that in most case studies, though. Mostly, you're going to find people who killed because it got them off, or because the voices told them to, or because they were angry. That's what I mean by romanticised. In most literature, you're going to find killers who had some grander idea in mind---people trying to make some point. In reality, you're not really going to find that. If you look at most available case studies, you're going to see people who killed for reasons that were anything but aesthetic. That you'll find otherwise is a romanticised notion of murder. Sure, some of them wanted attention. Doesn't mean they were creating art.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

You're not going to find that in most case studies, though. Mostly, you're going to find people who killed because it got them off, or because the voices told them to, or because they were angry. That's what I mean by romanticised. In most literature, you're going to find killers who had some grander idea in mind---people trying to make some point. In reality, you're not really going to find that. If you look at most available case studies, you're going to see people who killed for reasons that were anything but aesthetic. That you'll find otherwise is a romanticised notion of murder. Sure, some of them wanted attention. Doesn't mean they were creating art.

and I agree with you on that...which is why I repeatedly used the phrases "rare cases".

Andres Serrano created the image known as the "Piss Christ"

now...while I don't agree with his method, the image itself, if you get rid of the idea of it being piss, is actually quite extraordinary...and thats not even his most famous work....his most famous work is "Blood and Semen 3" and "Piss and Blood"....and the majority of us have seen them...we just don't realize it....lemme introduce you to them

"Blood and Semen 3"

"Piss and Blood"

His methods are shocking...and sickening....but it is still art, in a form.

the same could be said for those RARE cases of murder...

p.s. I hate you Wikipedia....

[freydis]

He was still creating something, as 'shocking' a medium it was that he chose (i dont find either particularily shocking).

I still think looking for a case of someone murdering as an art form is looking for a 'unicorn'. That said, I've written about fictitious cases of this. But that's just it, it's *fiction*. You're comparing a concious act of creation with a pathological act of destruction. You're not going to find what you're looking for.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

He was still creating something, as 'shocking' a medium it was that he chose (i dont find either particularily shocking).

I still think looking for a case of someone murdering as an art form is looking for a 'unicorn'. That said, I've written about fictitious cases of this. But that's just it, it's *fiction*. You're comparing a concious act of creation with a pathological act of destruction. You're not going to find what you're looking for.

but it's already out there...those images I placed before...the ones higher on this thread....those can be considered art....now....what if they were REAL murders...and not fake blood and models....we, as the public, have no clue....we would be oblivious to it's horrific nature as a crime, but drawn to it as a piece of art.

why should murder, something our society on a whole is desensitized to, and has been for a while, never be considered art, even if an artistic method was taken with it? It's still creating something....you can't create a proper corpse without a body.

again....the destruction of one thing leading to the creation of another....it's a common view thats been around forever.

btw...thanks for the input...I understand & respect your position and view of the subject.

[hunhee]

but it's already out there...those images I placed before...the ones higher on this thread....those can be considered art....now....what if they were REAL murders...and not fake blood and models....we, as the public, have no clue....we would be oblivious to it's horrific nature as a crime, but drawn to it as a piece of art.

why should murder, something our society on a whole is desensitized to, and has been for a while, never be considered art, even if an artistic method was taken with it? It's still creating something....you can't create a proper corpse without a body.

again....the destruction of one thing leading to the creation of another....it's a common view thats been around forever.

btw...thanks for the input...I understand & respect your position and view of the subject.

Actually it's more saying stuff about us as a society that we would glorify something like this, even in jest.

This is an interesting conversaton. I'm amused.

[phee]

but it's already out there...those images I placed before...the ones higher on this thread....those can be considered art....now....what if they were REAL murders...and not fake blood and models....we, as the public, have no clue....we would be oblivious to it's horrific nature as a crime, but drawn to it as a piece of art.

why should murder, something our society on a whole is desensitized to, and has been for a while, never be considered art, even if an artistic method was taken with it? It's still creating something....you can't create a proper corpse without a body.

again....the destruction of one thing leading to the creation of another....it's a common view thats been around forever.

btw...thanks for the input...I understand & respect your position and view of the subject.

Have you heard of anyone who has ever killed another simply for artistic expression?

And those who claim they have (say like the inquisition when there was the art of torture)... I believe that they did not have a stronger underlying issue, and may have used art as an excuse... Much like a pedophile claims when he has sex with a young boy/girl and calls it love.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Have you heard of anyone who has ever killed another simply for artistic expression?

And those who claim they have (say like the inquisition when there was the art of torture)... I believe that they did not have a stronger underlying issue, and may have used art as an excuse...

well...not exactly....but there are "copy cat killers", and some of them do it because they admire the origional commiter

and in Thomas Harris' "Hannibal", the title character DOES kill two people in a manor that their bodies resemble pieces of art (btw...those pieces actually exists...I just can't remember who did them...it was seperate artist).

again...I know that it's not "origional" or "real"....but their still examples...especially the Hannibal one....or how murder can become art, even if you are mimicking someone else's work.

Much like a pedophile claims when he has sex with a young boy/girl and calls it love.

and as sad as it is....and sickening....for some of them...in their minds....they don't register a differance....they don't see whats wrong with it...but that is a different thread now, isn't it??....

[Rev.Reverence]

Have you heard of anyone who has ever killed another simply for artistic expression?

Yes, I have...Snuff Films.

(what a great point to wake up and walk into this conversation...)

[Rev.Reverence]

NOW.....I'll............. "answer the fuuckin' question.!"

Existentially...YES

Realistically...NO

[phee]

well...not exactly....but there are "copy cat killers", and some of them do it because they admire the origional commiter

and in Thomas Harris' "Hannibal", the title character DOES kill two people in a manor that their bodies resemble pieces of art (btw...those pieces actually exists...I just can't remember who did them...it was seperate artist).

again...I know that it's not "origional" or "real"....but their still examples...especially the Hannibal one....or how murder can become art, even if you are mimicking someone else's work.

and as sad as it is....and sickening....for some of them...in their minds....they don't register a differance....they don't see whats wrong with it...but that is a different thread now, isn't it??....

Photographs of murder can be considered art... But not the actions... Any more then rape can be considered art.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Yes, I have...Snuff Films.

(what a great point to wake up and walk into this conversation...)

I was wondering how long it would take you to jump into this....I totally forgot Snuff Films...thank you....those art considered art to a certain part of society....