Murder

[phee]

that we know of...I mean we're still discovering plants, fish, and insects!!!

yes...Fiction is an art....an amazing art....however...there is NOTHING stopping that fiction from becoming a reality...especially when the the fiction mimics reality as close as it does some times.

That doesn't mean that a fictionalized murder is in anyway like an actual murder.

[freydis]

That doesn't mean that a fictionalized murder is in anyway like an actual murder.

.....and there isnt an art there.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

That doesn't mean that a fictionalized murder is in anyway like an actual murder.

and if one where to copy one of those "romanced murders"?....I mean...we're talking murder-as-art in fiction becoming murder-as-art in reality

going to the moon and seeing the ocean floor was once fiction too...

[phee]

and if one where to copy one of those "romanced murders"?....I mean...we're talking murder-as-art in fiction becoming murder-as-art in reality

going to the moon and seeing the ocean floor was once fiction too...

But murder has been done before and it still is not art.

If I see a girl raped in a very good movie, and I go out and rape a girl the same way I saw... that doesn't make it rape-art... it makes it a pathological and pshychotic reaction to someones art.

[freydis]

But murder has been done before and it still is not art.

If I see a girl raped in a very good movie, and I go out and rape a girl the same way I saw... that doesn't make it rape-art... it makes it a pathological and pshychotic reaction to someones art.

The intention to create something isnt there. Agreed, that would simply be you deciding that it was a good idea, and acting out your desires, duplicating what you saw on screen.

[phee]

and if one where to copy one of those "romanced murders"?....I mean...we're talking murder-as-art in fiction becoming murder-as-art in reality

going to the moon and seeing the ocean floor was once fiction too...

And people still write fiction about going to the moon and the ocean floor... does that mean that Buzz Aldren for actually doing it is an artist?

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

And people still write fiction about going to the moon and the ocean floor... does that mean that Buzz Aldren for actually doing it is an artist?

no...I'm saying that "it's all fiction and thats where it stays" isn't the best of ...i guess "ideals" would be the most proper term......in this discussion.

[freydis]

Words from French killer Nicolas Claux:

Art is creation and murder is annihilation...He thought this was the reason why so many other killers turn to art during incarceration: The urge to create compensates for the urge to destroy.

Murder is destruction, Art is creation. Both are very primal urges, but the two are polar opposites.

Murderers can create.....but not by the act of killing. The above quote comes from an article about murderers and serial killers who paint or create other arts, most while incarcerated.

[phee]

Are you saying that murder is an ideal?

[phee]

Thanks for putting into a nutshell the chief thing I hate about goth.

Do I win something???

Your welcome BTW

[Rev.Reverence]

Words from French killer Nicolas Claux:

Murder is destruction, Art is creation. Both are very primal urges, but the two are polar opposites.

Murderers can create.....but not by the act of killing. The above quote comes from an article about murderers and serial killers who paint or create other arts, most while incarcerated.

Mikhial Bakunin said: “The passion for destruction is also a creative passion.”

I see the Mona Lisa and can see that a white canvas was 'destroyed' by layers of paint.

(existentially speaking)

[phee]

Mikhial Bakunin said: “The passion for destruction is also a creative passion.”

I see the Mona Lisa and can see that a white canvas was 'destroyed' by layers of paint.

(existentially speaking)

interesting statement

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Words from French killer Nicolas Claux:

Murder is destruction, Art is creation. Both are very primal urges, but the two are polar opposites.

Murderers can create.....but not by the act of killing. The above quote comes from an article about murderers and serial killers who paint or create other arts, most while incarcerated.

ooo....very nice....I didn't think to actually go into murderers who ACTUALLY create art in the sense that we all know it.....

as for destruction as creation...especially in art...I turn to one of the "fathers" of modern art

" Every act of creation is first of all an act of destruction." - Picasso

mind you...I hate his later stuff....but the man has a point

and from another source

" That man can destroy life is just as miraculous a feat as that he can create it, for life is the miracle, the inexplicable. In the act of destruction, man sets himself above life he transcends himself as a creature. Thus, the ultimate choice for a man, inasmuch as he is driven to transcend himself, is to create or to destroy, to love or to hate." - Erich Fromm

[freydis]

ooo....very nice....I didn't think to actually go into murderers who ACTUALLY create art in the sense that we all know it.....

as for destruction as creation...especially in art...I turn to one of the "fathers" of modern art

" Every act of creation is first of all an act of destruction." - Picasso

mind you...I hate his later stuff....but the man has a point

and from another source

" That man can destroy life is just as miraculous a feat as that he can create it, for life is the miracle, the inexplicable. In the act of destruction, man sets himself above life he transcends himself as a creature. Thus, the ultimate choice for a man, inasmuch as he is driven to transcend himself, is to create or to destroy, to love or to hate." - Erich Fromm

But that brings us back to the central question--- is murder art? There seems to be a contingency that states creation and destruction as polar opposites, and this pits murder and art on two seperate ends of the scale. Whether by destroying, a man is 'trancending' himself, it's still not necessarily art. Art creates something.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

But that brings us back to the central question--- is murder art? There seems to be a contingency that states creation and destruction as polar opposites, and this pits murder and art on two seperate ends of the scale. Whether by destroying, a man is 'trancending' himself, it's still not necessarily art. Art creates something.

actually...I think that quote from Pablo kinda merges the two, IMO. He cites ALL creation as an act of destruction first

[phee]

actually...I think that quote from Pablo kinda merges the two, IMO. He cites ALL creation as an act of destruction first

Interesting idea.... so does that mean that all destruction is an act of creation? (I don't, I have been through a divorce)

[Rev.Reverence]

Interesting idea.... so does that mean that all destruction is an act of creation? (I don't, I have been through a divorce)

not if your logic is Aristotle's brand...

I forgot the opposite brand.

[freydis]

actually...I think that quote from Pablo kinda merges the two, IMO. He cites ALL creation as an act of destruction first

I still fundamentally disagree with you on this.

Murderers are not conciously and purposefully engaging in an act of creation. Motivation for homicide goes back to pathology; especially in serial offenders. The need to destroy is not the need to create..... and more often than not, homicide isn't even fueled by a need to destroy.

[hunhee]

Okay.. so what if someone did actually murder someone, used their blood as most of the pigment for the paint, skin teeth, etc. for texture.. got a gala opening, and called it "Murder as Art" and it's a hit.. why? because no one knows it was an ACTUAL murder.

This particular piece we will call "My Bloody Valentine".. heh

"They" call it genius.

"They" call it art.

Now, you can ask yourself (if you didn't know) is this art?

You would probably say "yes".

But now knowing.. do you call it art?

I think this is what he (GFP) means by perception.

I know this is in the other thread, but it fits here too, and I didn't want to say other stuff.

[freydis]

Okay.. so what if someone did actually murder someone, used their blood as most of the pigment for the paint, skin teeth, etc. for texture.. got a gala opening, and called it "Murder as Art" and it's a hit.. why? because no one knows it was an ACTUAL murder.

This particular piece we will call "My Bloody Valentine".. heh

"They" call it genius.

"They" call it art.

Now, you can ask yourself (if you didn't know) is this art?

You would probably say "yes".

But now knowing.. do you call it art?

I know this is in the other thread, but it fits here too, and I didn't want to say other stuff.

That goes back to the post segments on perception.

What you know about something definately changes your perception of it.

[phee]

That goes back to the post segments on perception.

What you know about something definately changes your perception of it.

Yeah.... just read Enders Game by Orson Scott Card

[hunhee]

That goes back to the post segments on perception.

What you know about something definately changes your perception of it.

heh I never said I wasn't slow..

Yeah.... just read Enders Game by Orson Scott Card

I have

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Interesting idea.... so does that mean that all destruction is an act of creation? (I don't, I have been through a divorce)

with all do respect, phee, and please...I do mean that....it still depends on the point of perception, IMO.

[phee]

with all do respect, phee, and please...I do mean that....it still depends on the point of perception, IMO.

That is actually the point that a lot of people are making.... Murder as art would have to come from the perception of a "broken" mind.

[hunhee]

Interesting idea.... so does that mean that all destruction is an act of creation? (I don't, I have been through a divorce)

You could kinda say the "big bang" was an act of distruction.. it went boom, spread dust and shit all over, but it also allowed for the creation of the universe. (of course this is theory too, I'm more of the quantum loop theory).