Murder

[freydis]

but it's already out there...those images I placed before...the ones higher on this thread....those can be considered art....now....what if they were REAL murders...and not fake blood and models....we, as the public, have no clue....we would be oblivious to it's horrific nature as a crime, but drawn to it as a piece of art.

why should murder, something our society on a whole is desensitized to, and has been for a while, never be considered art, even if an artistic method was taken with it? It's still creating something....you can't create a proper corpse without a body.

again....the destruction of one thing leading to the creation of another....it's a common view thats been around forever.

btw...thanks for the input...I understand & respect your position and view of the subject.

That still ignores the point I was making..... the *pictures* are art, but the act of murder isn't. Also, our knowledge that the people in them are models and aren't really dead is a part of what makes them art instead of crime scene photos. Also, saying that we dont know that the people in the pictures arent really dead isnt much of a point..... we *do* know it, and what-if-ing isnt going to change that. It's also not a realistic look at the topic. There are *no* case studies of murder-as-art. It's a unicorn--it doesnt exist. Its a pathology, not a creative expression.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Photographs of murder can be considered art... But not the actions... Any more then rape can be considered art.

understandable...but isn't that straddling a very sharp fence?? and an un-escapable one at that??

photographs of the act can be art....but not the act itself??....If the act is that shocking and incredible that I can take photographs of it...and call it art....then the act itself, of which I am taking shots of, must be along the lines of a masterwork in some respect....otherwise I wouldn't be taking shots of it and calling it art.

and to Munin....we believe them to be models...but the "what if" is very important to the topic...because we do not know, 100 percent, that they are models....what if it was real....yes...they would be "crime scene" shots....but only if they are presented as such....and they are not....they are presented as art.

not every murder is discovered.....it IS possible that someone is doing what we see above...but his models are victims...so the "what if" unicorn is a very real possiblity.

[freydis]

well...not exactly....but there are "copy cat killers", and some of them do it because they admire the origional commiter

and in Thomas Harris' "Hannibal", the title character DOES kill two people in a manor that their bodies resemble pieces of art (btw...those pieces actually exists...I just can't remember who did them...it was seperate artist).

again...I know that it's not "origional" or "real"....but their still examples...especially the Hannibal one....or how murder can become art, even if you are mimicking someone else's work.

and as sad as it is....and sickening....for some of them...in their minds....they don't register a differance....they don't see whats wrong with it...but that is a different thread now, isn't it??....

Hannibal Lecter is a fictitious character, and a hyper-romanticised notion of what a serial killer actually is. Illustrating my point.

Also.... copy-cat killing is a pathology of its own, some have called it the copycat effect.

[phee]

understandable...but isn't that straddling a very sharp fence?? and an un-escapable one at that??

photographs of the act can be art....but not the act itself??....If the act is that shocking and incredible that I can take photographs of it...and call it art....then the act itself, of which I am taking shots of, must be along the lines of a masterwork in some respect....otherwise I wouldn't be taking shots of it and calling it art.

and to Munin....we believe them to be models...but the "what if" is very important to the topic...because we do not know, 100 percent, that they are models....what if it was real....yes...they would be "crime scene" shots....but only if they are presented as such....and they are not....they are presented as art.

not every murder is discovered.....it IS possible that someone is doing what we see above...but his models are victims...so the "what if" unicorn is a very real possiblity.

The pictures don't kill people... the killing does. Just like in a horror movie the simulation of killing doesn't kill people, killing people does.

The crime itself is not art... If a sick person were to kill people and take pictures of it, the killing of the person is not art... if he take pictures of it (depraived as it is) could still be considered art.

Making a dead body is not art... the appearence of a dead body is another matter...

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

The pictures don't kill people... the killing does. Just like in a horror movie the simulation of killing doesn't kill people, killing people does.

The crime itself is not art... If a sick person were to kill people and take pictures of it, the killing of the person is not art... if he take pictures of it (depraived as it is) could still be considered art.

Making a dead body is not art... the appearence of a dead body is another matter...

....makes one wonder about how thin the line is between crime and art......

[freydis]

understandable...but isn't that straddling a very sharp fence?? and an un-escapable one at that??

photographs of the act can be art....but not the act itself??....If the act is that shocking and incredible that I can take photographs of it...and call it art....then the act itself, of which I am taking shots of, must be along the lines of a masterwork in some respect....otherwise I wouldn't be taking shots of it and calling it art.

The photos are a contrived situation, a creation. They're not dead, not really. So.......it's art.

and to Munin....we believe them to be models...but the "what if" is very important to the topic...because we do not know, 100 percent, that they are models....what if it was real....yes...they would be "crime scene" shots....but only if they are presented as such....and they are not....they are presented as art.

not every murder is discovered.....it IS possible that someone is doing what we see above...but his models are victims...so the "what if" unicorn is a very real possiblity.

But they're NOT. And we know it. That makes all the difference.

*If* such a sitation ever came to be (and you have me extremely skeptical, here) the knowledge that they were real would negate their status as art..... and render it again, a crime scene photo. And I say again.... you have me very much in doubt here. It's just not been demonstrated in reality, anywhere.

[phee]

....makes one wonder about how thin the line is between crime and art......

indeed it does....

I will say that murder can be considered art to other murders perhaps.

But then again having sex with a 6 year old can be considered love to another pedophile.

[Rev.Reverence]

*If* such a sitation ever came to be (and you have me extremely skeptical, here) the knowledge that they were real would negate their status as art..... and render it again, a crime scene photo. And I say again.... you have me very much in doubt here. It's just not been demonstrated in reality, anywhere.

I saw a snuff film once...it was gross but the OTHER people in the room thought it art.

[freydis]

I saw a snuff film once...it was gross but the OTHER people in the room thought it art.

Snuff films aren't art.

To some, they're pornography. Again, it's more a pathology than enything else.

[Rev.Reverence]

Snuff films aren't art.

To some, they're pornography. Again, it's more a pathology than enything else.

Aha...

Do go on...

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

The photos are a contrived situation, a creation. They're not dead, not really. So.......it's art.

But they're NOT. And we know it. That makes all the difference.

*If* such a sitation ever came to be (and you have me extremely skeptical, here) the knowledge that they were real would negate their status as art..... and render it again, a crime scene photo. And I say again.... you have me very much in doubt here. It's just not been demonstrated in reality, anywhere.

ok...now...since you dealt with me this long..humor me, if you will.....we DO NOT know that they aren't dead.....we BELIEVE that they are....we HOPE that they are....but we cannot say, 100%, that they are. Many photos like the ones above are only part of the person....who says that arm in that photo is attached??

It is only our BELIEF that makes them art....not our knowledge.

[phee]

I know that in this subculture of ours that likes the mabre there is a temptation to be twisted and have twisted viewpoints for the sake of it.

I knew a somewhat "Gothy" girl once who did paintings with her mentrual blood, she was a bit "off" but mainly she wanted to be able to say "Hey look everyone! I am doing paintings with my menstrual blood! Give me attention for being so sick and cool"

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

I know that in this subculture of ours that likes the mabre there is a temptation to be twisted and have twisted viewpoints for the sake of it.

I knew a somewhat "Gothy" girl once who did paintings with her mentrual blood, she was a bit "off" but mainly she wanted to be able to say "Hey look everyone! I am doing paintings with my menstrual blood! Give me attention for being so sick and cool"

it all comes down to views and perceptions then...does it not?

[phee]

it all comes down to views and perceptions then...does it not?

As does everything in life IMO...

I mean if there are two sckitzo people who both insist they were seeing a red T-rex who was trying to sell them junkfood and beer.... who is to say that they didn't percieve it that way?

In other words, as you said... its up to the indivual what and what not to consider art. If said individual has mental issues according to the cultural paradigm.... then murder can be art.... Just not to those of us who are usually considered sane.

[freydis]

Aha...

Do go on...

Like any other overly extreme behaviour, it's a symptom of some other psychological pathology. People don't create snuff films as art, or to make a point. Usually, they either have their own homicidal urges (and this goes back to the original point of motivation), or theyre making money off those who watch 'death' porn. Usually, one owns snuff films for one of two reasons: either as an oddity, a novelty; or because they get off over watching death, and don't want to do the messy part themselves. Snuff films aren't about art, they're about sex and control.

[Rev.Reverence]

As does everything in life IMO...

I mean if there are two sckitzo people who both insist they were seeing a red T-rex who was trying to sell them junkfood and beer.... who is to say that they didn't percieve it that way?

In other words, as you said... its up to the indivual what and what not to consider art. If said individual has mental issues according to the cultural paradigm.... then murder can be art.... Just not to those of us who are usually considered sane.

that is the "existential/realistic" dichotomy

(I just spelled dichotomy from memory) YAY!

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

As does everything in life IMO...

I mean if there are two sckitzo people who both insist they were seeing a red T-rex who was trying to sell them junkfood and beer.... who is to say that they didn't percieve it that way?

In other words, as you said... its up to the indivual what and what not to consider art. If said individual has mental issues according to the cultural paradigm.... then murder can be art.... Just not to those of us who are usually considered sane.

hey now...I may not be "sane"...but I can just understand how, in rare cases, it can be viewed that way....

odd that I can't stand "modern art" - lots of that cubism crap needs to go....but I am more understanding of how a flayed, bleeding human body could be considered as art.....

[Rev.Reverence]

Like any other overly extreme behaviour, it's a symptom of some other psychological pathology. People don't create snuff films as art, or to make a point. Usually, they either have their own homicidal urges (and this goes back to the original point of motivation), or theyre making money off those who watch 'death' porn. Usually, one owns snuff films for one of two reasons: either as an oddity, a novelty; or because they get off over watching death, and don't want to do the messy part themselves. Snuff films aren't about art, they're about sex and control.

Power Mongering...

is that a good term munin?

[freydis]

ok...now...since you dealt with me this long..humor me, if you will.....we DO NOT know that they aren't dead.....we BELIEVE that they are....we HOPE that they are....but we cannot say, 100%, that they are. Many photos like the ones above are only part of the person....who says that arm in that photo is attached??

It is only our BELIEF that makes them art....not our knowledge.

I'd say the opposite is true..... it's our knowledge that makes them art. If that knowledge changes, the perception of the photograph changes.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

that is the "existential/realistic" dichotomy

(I just spelled dichotomy from memory) YAY!

you live by those little red lines, don't ya....lol

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

I'd say the opposite is true..... it's our knowledge that makes them art. If that knowledge changes, the perception of the photograph changes.

hmm...interesting...your saying that knowledge produces perception??...not the other way around??

[freydis]

it all comes down to views and perceptions then...does it not?

Perception is very much at the heart of Art. But it isn't the whole of it.

[Rev.Reverence]

you live by those little red lines, don't ya....lol

The spell check? ya...

OR the "/" grey lines...Yes also.

[freydis]

Power Mongering...

is that a good term munin?

It gets close to the heart of it..... but I think it's a lot about broken minds.

[Rev.Reverence]

hmm...interesting...your saying that knowledge produces perception??...not the other way around??

Chicken/Egg

CYCLIC