Murder

[phee]

The culture can change and so can the general paradigm... There was a time when watching peoples heads chopped off was considered entertainment, or when watching slaves killing one another is considered sport. But in our culture now, murder is not art for anyone who is thought of as sane....

Those who say it is are either A.) Trying to get attention B.) Have a mental disorder C.) Not of this culture in most of the moral/artistic senses.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

only because it is relavent to the thread currently

what is your knowledge of this image?

how many people are in that reality?

[Oh_My_Goth]

Art has been referred to as an expression of ones skills.....So I suppose murder can be considered art.

Not Me type of art, but hey, whatever floats your boat.....

[Rev.Reverence]

It gets close to the heart of it..... but I think it's a lot about broken minds.

No...there is something else...other than a broken mind...

My mind is broken...or at least damaged...

I do not look to lord power over others (except when in the bedroom, and they beg well)

I'm really digging this conversation...

[freydis]

hmm...interesting...your saying that knowledge produces perception??...not the other way around??

Its somewhat cyclical. Chicken and egg, perhaps.

For instance..... depending on your preference: You see a beautiful woman at a bar. You contemplate hitting on her. To your knowledge, she indeed, is a pretty lady sitting alone. A friend sees you staring, and whispers a bit of advice in your ear. That pretty lady you were staring at is actually a man. Maybe your preference doesnt run that way; so now, you don't see her as a pretty woman anymore. Knowledge has changed your perception. There are dozens of other such illustrations I could make.

Yes, sometimes what we percieve informs us, but sometimes how we percieve is changed by what we find out, or what we know.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Its somewhat cyclical. Chicken and egg, perhaps.

For instance..... depending on your preference: You see a beautiful woman at a bar. You contemplate hitting on her. To your knowledge, she indeed, is a pretty lady sitting alone. A friend sees you staring, and whispers a bit of advice in your ear. That pretty lady you were staring at is actually a man. Maybe your preference doesnt run that way; so now, you don't see her as a pretty woman anymore. Knowledge has changed your perception. There are dozens of other such illustrations I could make.

Yes, sometimes what we percieve informs us, but sometimes how we percieve is changed by what we find out, or what we know.

lol....so...who's up for building a time machine and finding out what actually came first???...lol....

[freydis]

No...there is something else...other than a broken mind...

My mind is broken...or at least damaged...

I do not look to lord power over others (except when in the bedroom, and they beg well)

I'm really digging this conversation...

Most people who have the urge to lord power over others are broken in some way, though. It's not exactly a sign of a well-adjusted, healthy mind.

[freydis]

only because it is relavent to the thread currently

what is your knowledge of this image?

how many people are in that reality?

.....i dont think i understand the question, here.

[phee]

lol....so...who's up for building a time machine and finding out what actually came first???...lol....

The chicken and the egg were the same at one point.... scientifically speaking

Back on topic...

The recreation of a thing or the simulation of the thing is very different then the actual thing. Murder and simulations of murder are different... if you don't believe me, think of watching group sex on the internet... you are not having sex you are watching a recording of people doing it, unless you are mental, you do not actually believe you are having sex with the people on the computer (believe me, there is a difference). Sex is more expensive then porn... if they were the same, actuall two person sex would vertually disappear.

Which is why murder is not art... If people have an urge to murder someone... they may kill you... If people have an urge to make an image of someone murdered, then they paint, or get models or make a movie.

[freydis]

lol....so...who's up for building a time machine and finding out what actually came first???...lol....

[Rev.Reverence]

only because it is relavent to the thread currently

what is your knowledge of this image?

how many people are in that reality?

3....5....infinity/zero

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

.....i dont think i understand the question, here.

ok...well....our "knowledge/perception" of the photo, as it stands...is that there are 3 people in that photo, right? and one is a guy with partially golden teeth...correct?

well...the REALITY of the photo is that there is 1 person in the photo....the guy out by the ball....the other two ppl have been added....and the added man has no gold teeth...those too have been added.

Our knowledge/perception of the models in the "murder photos" was that they are, in reality, alive...because we believe that the artist wouldn't have killed his models to get those shots.....

our "knowledge/perception" vs. reality just took the chicken and egg cyclical problem...and made Chinese food....

Our Knowledge/perception of the reality is based on our belief of what we know as facts in the image.....but if those facts aren't really there, then yes, our perception/knowledge of the image changes....but it doesn't change the image...and the image is still considered art

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Which is why murder is not art... If people have an urge to murder someone... they may kill you... If people have an urge to make an image of someone murdered, then they paint, or get models or make a movie.

but what stops someone from blurring that line?

I reference the 2001 movie "The Cavemans Valentine", where they actually use what we are talking about as a major part of the plot.

[phee]

but what stops someone from blurring that line?

I reference the 2001 movie "The Cavemans Valentine", where they actually use what we are talking about as a major part of the plot.

Killing does

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Killing does

*looks around in the silence*.....you know, phee....if you ended up killing the thread titled "Murder"....I think thats gonna be the new DGN definition of irony.....

anyway....I still think there are rather blurred lines between the actual act and photographing it...

[phee]

*looks around in the silence*.....you know, phee....if you ended up killing the thread titled "Murder"....I think thats gonna be the new DGN definition of irony.....

anyway....I still think there are rather blurred lines between the actual act and photographing it...

I really don't... that would be like saying any photographer who took a photo of the war in the middle east of the murder and bloodshed is in a blurry area... they aren't.

Taking a photo of a simulated murder, and actually killing someone is a pretty clear line.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

I really don't... that would be like saying any photographer who took a photo of the war in the middle east of the murder and bloodshed is in a blurry area... they aren't.

Taking a photo of a simulated murder, and actually killing someone is a pretty clear line.

understood...cept I wasn't talking simulated murder.....

[phee]

understood...cept I wasn't talking simulated murder.....

Exactly... a picture doesn't kill someone....

[freydis]

ok...well....our "knowledge/perception" of the photo, as it stands...is that there are 3 people in that photo, right? and one is a guy with partially golden teeth...correct?

well...the REALITY of the photo is that there is 1 person in the photo....the guy out by the ball....the other two ppl have been added....and the added man has no gold teeth...those too have been added.

Our knowledge/perception of the models in the "murder photos" was that they are, in reality, alive...because we believe that the artist wouldn't have killed his models to get those shots.....

our "knowledge/perception" vs. reality just took the chicken and egg cyclical problem...and made Chinese food....

Our Knowledge/perception of the reality is based on our belief of what we know as facts in the image.....but if those facts aren't really there, then yes, our perception/knowledge of the image changes....but it doesn't change the image...and the image is still considered art

The addition of the people, the manipulation of reality to create something else from a simple source picture.... that makes it art. I don't think we're quite on the same page, here..... what we percieve about the picture and the reality of it don't correlate as far as art is concerned, but the manipulation of the picture to create a different image...... that's art.

[freydis]

but what stops someone from blurring that line?

I reference the 2001 movie "The Cavemans Valentine", where they actually use what we are talking about as a major part of the plot.

Again, it's *fiction*.

[Rev.Reverence]

The addition of the people, the manipulation of reality to create something else from a simple source picture.... that makes it art. I don't think we're quite on the same page, here..... what we percieve about the picture and the reality of it don't correlate as far as art is concerned, but the manipulation of the picture to create a different image...... that's art.

I think we are all on the same piece of paper...just G-Fallen on one side, PHEE & munin on the other side...

..I refuse to sit still...(it's a philosophical stance)

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Again, it's *fiction*.

for THAT....there is nothing to stop someone doing that for real...and being admired for it....just because it's *fiction* within a book or movie doesn't mean that the situation that the movie or book projects be any less real....after all...some of the best fiction writers base their stuff of what can, and in some cases does, really happen.

John Grishom

Tom Clancy

Even some of the works of Micheal Crichton

their all *fiction*, but they represent situation that we are either direly close to achieving, or things that can, and most likely do, happen.

and opinions, IMO, are only there because everyone is on different pages...or sides of them, to reference the Rev.

and phee, I understand that the picture doesn't physically kill someone...but they COULD be killed FOR the picture. People have stated that they would kill for their religious beliefs....it's not so hard to think someone will kill for the sake of art.

I never said that those ppl were SANE....I'm just laying the idea out there...and idea that is more real then many people think...

[phee]

for THAT....there is nothing to stop someone doing that for real...and being admired for it....just because it's *fiction* within a book or movie doesn't mean that the situation that the movie or book projects be any less real....after all...some of the best fiction writers base their stuff of what can, and in some cases does, really happen.

John Grishom

Tom Clancy

Even some of the works of Micheal Crichton

their all *fiction*, but they represent situation that we are either direly close to achieving, or things that can, and most likely do, happen.

and opinions, IMO, are only there because everyone is on different pages...or sides of them, to reference the Rev.

and phee, I understand that the picture doesn't physically kill someone...but they COULD be killed FOR the picture. People have stated that they would kill for their religious beliefs....it's not so hard to think someone will kill for the sake of art.

I never said that those ppl were SANE....I'm just laying the idea out there...and idea that is more real then many people think...

Killing for the sake of art.... and murder as art are very different

[freydis]

for THAT....there is nothing to stop someone doing that for real...and being admired for it....just because it's *fiction* within a book or movie doesn't mean that the situation that the movie or book projects be any less real....after all...some of the best fiction writers base their stuff of what can, and in some cases does, really happen.

John Grishom

Tom Clancy

Even some of the works of Micheal Crichton

their all *fiction*, but they represent situation that we are either direly close to achieving, or things that can, and most likely do, happen.

and opinions, IMO, are only there because everyone is on different pages...or sides of them, to reference the Rev.

and phee, I understand that the picture doesn't physically kill someone...but they COULD be killed FOR the picture. People have stated that they would kill for their religious beliefs....it's not so hard to think someone will kill for the sake of art.

I never said that those ppl were SANE....I'm just laying the idea out there...and idea that is more real then many people think...

But basically, back to the beginning of the conversation..... fiction *is* an art. Murder as art has stayed in that realm..... fiction. My point was that there's not any real-world examples of murder-as-art, because the notion is one of romanticised fiction, not reality. The pathology just inst there.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

But basically, back to the beginning of the conversation..... fiction *is* an art. Murder as art has stayed in that realm..... fiction. My point was that there's not any real-world examples of murder-as-art, because the notion is one of romanticised fiction, not reality. The pathology just inst there.

that we know of...I mean we're still discovering plants, fish, and insects!!!

yes...Fiction is an art....an amazing art....however...there is NOTHING stopping that fiction from becoming a reality...especially when the the fiction mimics reality as close as it does some times.