Wiretapping bill passed

[Hellion]

Don't we all seem to feel that our rights and freedom are being outsourced,just like jobs are.sure is looking that way.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

1. I'm not a Republican.

2. I have read the Constitution, have you? Have you read the Geneva Convention? Read the. You will be surprised at how much your wrong about.

US Constitution

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Yes...they saw a big change coming...they set down the Foundation...Further generations have built upon...you cannot crush it..and start something new as so many would like to do..you must treat it as a remodeling job..not a new construction site.

I was more stating it as a generally yellow bellied thing to do...spying and such.

More American to hit back when hit...just HARDER!

More American..I think...to stop buying oil from that part of the world ALTOGETHER!

WE CAN DO IT!...Before some one asks me how...I don't know...or I'ld be rich...FILTHY RICH..

It shows you have no understanding of War. Information has won more wars than arms have. You advocate being Reactive rather than Proactive. That type of thinking is what gets people killed.

Der Nister... Which of your rights have been violated?

[Rev.Reverence]

It shows you have no understanding of War. Information has won more wars than arms have. You advocate being Reactive rather than Proactive. That type of thinking is what gets people killed.

Der Nister... Which of your rights have been violated?

I think your wrong to make such assumptions...

Just because I don't agree with how THEY are fighting this war...OR your idea on what war is...Don't tell ME I have "no understanding of WAR"...you don't fuckin' know me dude...

..I think that war would be more WHAT WAR IS if they ditched the fuckin; Geneva Convention!

...How ya' supposed to fight by RULES if the other guys aren't...

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

You have stated that you think Spying on the enemy is cowardly. I think that shows gross ignorance of War.

Now the reason the enlightened prince and the wise general conquer the enemy whenever they move and their achievements surpass those of ordinary men is foreknowledge.

O divine art of subtlety and secrecy! Through you we learn to be invisible, through you inaudible and hence we can hold the enemy's fate in our hands.

Of all those in the army close to the commander none is more intimate than the secret agent; of all rewards none more liberal than those given to secret agents; of all matters none is more confidential than those relating to secret operations.

Secret operations are essential in war; upon them the army relies to make its every move.

All warfare is based on deception.

The Art of War by Sun Tzu is a wonderfull read.

[Rev.Reverence]

You have stated that you think Spying on the enemy is cowardly. I think that shows gross ignorance of War.

The Art of War by Sun Tzu is a wonderfull read.

Do you phrase things to sound like you THINK your superior on purpose, or is it a medical condition?(honest question Gaf)

WHY...when someone thinks differently than you, do you ASSuME they have not read a book that you have?

I have a moral set that tells me spying is a cowardly task...not unnecessary...still cowardly...FURTHERMORE when EVERYBODY knows OUR GOVERNMENT is doing it...it becomes a waste of time...and OUR tax dollar...

[torn asunder]

just a friendly reminder to keep things civil, people!!

[Rev.Reverence]

just a friendly reminder to keep things civil, people!!

We're fightin' nice...Thanx for the reminder though!

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Do you phrase things to sound like you THINK your superior on purpose, or is it a medical condition?(honest question Gaf)

WHY...when someone thinks differently than you, do you ASSuME they have not read a book that you have?

I have a moral set that tells me spying is a cowardly task...not unnecessary...still cowardly...FURTHERMORE when EVERYBODY knows OUR GOVERNMENT is doing it...it becomes a waste of time...and OUR tax dollar...

Are you done tearing down my character? Really, your veiled insults are not really needed. To answer your question though... I assume you have not read it because your statements mean that you either have not read it or you read it with no comprehension of what it said. Would you rather I assume you are ignorant or stupid? I have read it and took lessons from it as it was intended. Those lessons taught me that it is better to assume you ignorant than stupid... underestimating an "enemy" is a very bad thing to do. There is a third option that presents itself, that is that you reject the teachings in the book. That is a false path, as it only leads back to the inability to comprehend what was written.

Nobody would know about the spying if people would get over thier prtty hatred of Bush. If people would focus more on protecting our nation and less on doing everything they can to take Bush down. Most of the rabid left would welcome another large scale attack on US soil if it meant Bush would get taken out of office. Some of the shit I have seen people blaming on Bush... it saddens me just how fucking stupid and self absorbed people are.

[phee]

I agree that some amount spying is necessary.

I agree that too much is a bad thing.

I agree that Bush has become a scapegoat for things that are not his fault.

I also think that this is the worst administration we have had in my lifetime and he should be in jail...

[Rev.Reverence]

Are you done tearing down my character? NO.

Really, your veiled insults are not really needed.I do not believe in veiling things, (it's cowardly)

SOMETIMES...I come off in a condescending manner...(the tone of my voice, the vocabulary I use, the speed I speak at)...ever since THE head wound things have been strange...SOMETIMES...I was SERIOUS!

To answer your question though... I assume you have not read it because your statements mean that you either have not read it or you read it with no comprehension of what it said. Would you rather I assume you are ignorant or stupid? I have read it and took lessons from it as it was intended. Those lessons taught me that it is better to assume you ignorant than stupid... underestimating an "enemy" is a very bad thing to do. There is a third option that presents itself, that is that you reject the teachings in the book. That is a false path, as it only leads back to the inability to comprehend what was written.

Nobody would know about the spying if people would get over thier prtty hatred of Bush. If people would focus more on protecting our nation and less on doing everything they can to take Bush down. Most of the rabid left would welcome another large scale attack on US soil if it meant Bush would get taken out of office. Some of the shit I have seen people blaming on Bush... it saddens me just how fucking stupid and self absorbed people are.

I read The Art of War...I quote it at times.

..once again...your putting too much 'absolute' into your words..."There is a third option that presents itself, that is that you reject the teachings in the book. That is a false path, as it only leads back to the inability to comprehend what was written."

I don't get this avenue of debate 'cause you just saw me state that...

"I have a moral set that tells me spying is a cowardly task...not unnecessary...still cowardly...FURTHERMORE when EVERYBODY knows OUR GOVERNMENT is doing it...it becomes a waste of time...and OUR tax dollar..."

I do not recall what Sun Tzu sais to do when you:

1...pissed off over 60% of your population.

2...your secret is out.

3...your allies are dropping out of the campaign.

...what's your answer to that...since you are supportive of the position..

[Rev.Reverence]

I agree that some amount spying is necessary.

I agree that too much is a bad thing.

I agree that Bush has become a scapegoat for things that are not his fault.

I also think that this is the worst administration we have had in my lifetime and he should be in jail...

[SaGa]

this bill might also have to deal with chines same development of security in its major cities. and they are putting some real high tech shit in there cities.

but how many of you have to worry about the goverment calling you a terrorist. its not like dude i saw this great porn last night, and the goverment knowing what porn your watching. hey maby he just needs to jack off while working, those jobs are boring as hell even thou they pay good

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Are you done tearing down my character? NO.

Really, your veiled insults are not really needed.I do not believe in veiling things, (it's cowardly)

SOMETIMES...I come off in a condescending manner...(the tone of my voice, the vocabulary I use, the speed I speak at)...ever since THE head wound things have been strange...SOMETIMES...I was SERIOUS!

I read The Art of War...I quote it at times.

..once again...your putting too much 'absolute' into your words..."There is a third option that presents itself, that is that you reject the teachings in the book. That is a false path, as it only leads back to the inability to comprehend what was written."

I don't get this avenue of debate 'cause you just saw me state that...

"I have a moral set that tells me spying is a cowardly task...not unnecessary...still cowardly...FURTHERMORE when EVERYBODY knows OUR GOVERNMENT is doing it...it becomes a waste of time...and OUR tax dollar..."

I do not recall what Sun Tzu sais to do when you:

1...pissed off over 60% of your population.

2...your secret is out.

3...your allies are dropping out of the campaign.

...what's your answer to that...since you are supportive of the position..

OK then. You have stated clearly that you are going to keep attacking my charactor. Thank you for defining our relationship as one of enemys. I take it as a compliment that you think I am worthy of your attention but perhaps you should really check your ego. What do you think gives you the authority to Judge me?

Are you calling yourself a coward? Or admitting that you were trying to openly insult me? Little of both?

Is it lonely up on that horse?

1. There are routes not to be followed, armies not to be attacked, citadels not to be besieged, territory not to be fought over, orders of civilian governments not to be obeyed.

2. If they rule armies without knowing the arts of complete adaptivity, even if they know what there is to gain, they cannot get people to work for them.

3. I don't have a qoute for your last one... I will answer it with a question or three... What allies are backing out? What about the ones that are coming on? Germany, Italy and France are starting to move closer to us. We are getting more and more support at the UN.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Phee... I think Carter was worse. Bush has at least tried to some thing.

[phee]

Phee... I think Carter was worse. Bush has at least tried to some thing.

Do you mean tried to "do" something?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

opps, missed a word... yeah...

[phee]

opps, missed a word... yeah...

I can see that perspective, one could say that carter didn't do enough, if not anything...but... The question being, is that worse or better then what Bush does... in other words, the fact that Bush does "something" at all is NOT better then doing nothing, when the "something" that he is doing is not intended to help anyone or anything accept for his own power and the power of those that put him there.

If Bush had tried to do something "good" or "positive" and just messed up... that would be one thing, but I don't think that he did, or at the very least I don't think those who control the administration did. I think their motivations were pretty much selfish and greedy in nature, with barely any consideration to those that they hurt. And when they did try to spin things to make it look like they were making an effort, most people in the country didn't by it, the "Mission Accomplished" sign, the firing of US attorneys for political purposes... these were examples of deliberatly doing harm to others for the gain of the Administration and it's power. I don't know if Bush (the man) is a bad person, but I do know that what surrounds him and he supports is bad.

If certain other people had not done "something" and decided to do nothing instead there are certain groups of people who would not have been slaughtered through out history... Osama Bin Lauden for example. I am not advocating inaction by any means, but action taken by a person for "evil" reasons, IMO is worse then inaction.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

well, I don't think his intentions or those around him are as bad as how they are painted or appear. There is much that we don't know going on.

I try to look at everything.. well... How does it fit within either good tactics or good stratagy? Can I find some logic that supports what ever action is being taken being part of some stratagy or tactic?

I don't support all that is being done or how it is being done. There is much that falls into a catagory of "I oppose that on priciple but I can see a long term stratigic advantage." or "That tactic seems so out of place but I can see where it fits in with an over all tactical advantage."

the problem is... if I were allowed to know enough detail of the over all stratagy and the reasoning behind every tactic to get there, so that I really knew what was going on and could make a real judgement on the plan... so would the enemy.

[torn asunder]

you know, gaf, i re-read rev's post, and i was confused as to why you thought he was "attacking your character", so i went thru his post and removed everything but his words - i've posted it below...

I do not believe in veiling things, (it's cowardly)

SOMETIMES...I come off in a condescending manner...(the tone of my voice, the vocabulary I use, the speed I speak at)...ever since THE head wound things have been strange...SOMETIMES...I was SERIOUS!

I read The Art of War...I quote it at times.

..once again...your putting too much 'absolute' into your words...

I don't get this avenue of debate 'cause you just saw me state that...

"I have a moral set that tells me spying is a cowardly task...not unnecessary...still cowardly...FURTHERMORE when EVERYBODY knows OUR GOVERNMENT is doing it...it becomes a waste of time...and OUR tax dollar..."

I do not recall what Sun Tzu sais to do when you:

1...pissed off over 60% of your population.

2...your secret is out.

3...your allies are dropping out of the campaign.

...what's your answer to that...since you are supportive of the position..

am i missing something? where is he attacking your character? rev & i both know that his posts can get confusing sometimes, so i thought i'd ask / try to figure this out - and i just don't see it!?

[phee]

well, I don't think his intentions or those around him are as bad as how they are painted or appear. There is much that we don't know going on.

I try to look at everything.. well... How does it fit within either good tactics or good stratagy? Can I find some logic that supports what ever action is being taken being part of some stratagy or tactic?

I don't support all that is being done or how it is being done. There is much that falls into a catagory of "I oppose that on priciple but I can see a long term stratigic advantage." or "That tactic seems so out of place but I can see where it fits in with an over all tactical advantage."

the problem is... if I were allowed to know enough detail of the over all stratagy and the reasoning behind every tactic to get there, so that I really knew what was going on and could make a real judgement on the plan... so would the enemy.

I do agree that I know enough to admit I don't know.... There have been a lot of leaders throughout history that at the time of there power they were seen as one thing, and upon retrospect... were seen differently.

The problem with "some logic" is it can be made to support anything. Most people who do "wrong" are not doing it on purpose, they believe that they are in the "right" or at worst they don't care if it is right or wrong. Tactics is one thing, but the good he has done I doubt (and although I cannot say assuredly) will ever make up for the amount of suffering he has caused/worsned to cause throughout the last 7 and a half years. You are correct, I don't know the truth about the over all stratagy, all I can really imagine is that it really sucks.

Mistakes are another matter but still, a drunk driver who kills an innocent can't get off the hook by saying "Well it wasn't my fault it was the faulty intelligence/bartender who made me this way." He is just as guilty of killing someone through blind pride and negligence then any drunk driver. No one spiked his "drink" here... he just didn't care what he was drinking, who made it, or where he had to drive afterwards, he simply wanted, or was persuaded into, getting drunk... IMO of course.... Over all stratagy.... If I stand corrected someday, I will be a happy man.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

you know, gaf, i re-read rev's post, and i was confused as to why you thought he was "attacking your character", so i went thru his post and removed everything but his words - i've posted it below...

am i missing something? where is he attacking your character? rev & i both know that his posts can get confusing sometimes, so i thought i'd ask / try to figure this out - and i just don't see it!?

Does it really matter where? He has admitted that he is going to continue.. He can't continue if he had not already started. But to answer.. just look for the insult accompanied by the qualifier that says it was not meant as an insult.

[torn asunder]

Does it really matter where? He has admitted that he is going to continue.. He can't continue if he had not already started. But to answer.. just look for the insult accompanied by the qualifier that says it was not meant as an insult.

damnit, man, just point it out already - i don't have time to try to seek out / interpret what you feel is an insult...

it appears he just wants to continue the conversation, albeit from an opposing side...

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Do you phrase things to sound like you THINK your superior on purpose, or is it a medical condition?(honest question Gaf)

[Oh_My_Goth]