Wiretapping bill passed

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

our forefathers didnt see population growth of a high caliber, consumerism, a society based on fossil fuels. or world trade at this magnitude.

if towns had more power to influence states, and so to country, then we could balance this monarch of white house dick heads, why the hell cant we also vote on the people the president chooses for his cabinent. , perhaps things could be better, but most our fed taxes is used on military, and projects that dont help the common man.

and this super delegates and electorial collage to sway the voting system in the excuse amaricans whouldnt choose the right guy is just wrong.

just remember to change anything you need to have everyone stop believing in the new system and say NO, but that wont happen so we have to live with a few more annoyences

I missed this...

you are talking about States Rights. Read the Constitution.... it's all setup there. We have, in the last 100 years, given the Federal government way more power than it was designed to have. BTW, States Rights is one of the Republican party's banners... Democrats are usually very against them.

Most of our Federal Taxes go to the Military because the Federal Government's main job is... well.. Creating and maintaining a Military force to protect the populace. no where in the Constitution is the Federal government tasked with helping you live your life or any of the others who fit the description "common man". Thats your State governments job.

Super Delegates are a Democratic Party thing... Republicans don't have them. They are also not part of the Election for President. They are part of the Democratic party's process of naming a Candidate for the Presidency.

The electorial colloge is a necessary evil. it's not perfect but it's better than a straight popular vote. A popular vote would allow a very small portion of the country to choose who is President.

[phee]

Do you phrase things to sound like you THINK your superior on purpose, or is it a medical condition?(honest question Gaf)

I do admit that is insulting

[Destroit]

I agree that some amount spying is necessary.

I agree that too much is a bad thing.

I agree that Bush has become a scapegoat for things that are not his fault.

I also think that this is the worst administration we have had in my lifetime and he should be in jail...

You, Phee, have made the best and most logical post in this thread so far

[phee]

You, Phee, have made the best and most logical post in this thread so far

That is freaky

[Destroit]

That is freaky

Does...does it scare you?

[Goth Brooks]

Dbl post...

but I'll take this time to point something out.

The founding fathers wrote a wonderful document. It outlined what the Federal governments #1 job is... Protecting the citizens from threats foreign and domestic.

I want them to do their job and I dint really give a flying fuck if they have to pull the finger nails off every camel jockey in the mid east to do it.

Now the the Supreme Court has decided that "enemy combatants" have all the rights of a US citizen... We will be taking far fewer prisoners. Those peoples that we capture without a uniform on will be treated exatly how the Geneva convention says to treat them. They will be executed where and when they are caught.

Shooting them in the head as we catch them is far better than putting them in a prison and breaking thier wills so we know everything we can about our enemy. (Heavy sarcasm)

This type of thinking is that you people are exhibiting is exactly why 9/11 happened.

Torture has been proven time and again to be a useless tool for information gathering. People will just tell you what you want to hear to get the acts to stop.

Don't believe me? By all means come over, after a weekend I can have you admitting to the black plague, the JFK assassination, and the price of gas.

[Goth Brooks]

The electorial colloge is a necessary evil. it's not perfect but it's better than a straight popular vote. A popular vote would allow a very small portion of the country to choose who is President.

The popular vote would allow 51% of the voting population to choose who is president. Which is exactly how it should be.

A run-off popular vote election is how the leader of the US should be decided. I want the person that >50% of the voters say should lead us, to do so.

Or did you miss the fact that Kerry won the popular vote, and yet Bush was re-elected?

The electoral college is obsolete, the reason for it's existence hasn't been a rational argument for 70-90yrs.

[torn asunder]

Do you phrase things to sound like you THINK your superior on purpose, or is it a medical condition?(honest question Gaf)

as it says, *honest question* - you'll notice he mentioned having a head injury, which has made him more likely to come across that way. it seems to me he's asking if you've had a similar incident... i think you're reading into that, exactly what you want to, and choosing to be offended by it.

[torn asunder]

The popular vote would allow 51% of the voting population to choose who is president. Which is exactly how it should be.

A run-off popular vote election is how the leader of the US should be decided. I want the person that >50% of the voters say should lead us, to do so.

Or did you miss the fact that Kerry won the popular vote, and yet Bush was re-elected?

The electoral college is obsolete, the reason for it's existence hasn't been a rational argument for 70-90yrs.

and if no candidate gets 50% of the vote?

[Goth Brooks]

and if no candidate gets 50% of the vote?

run-off election: all candidates in (dems, reps, green, libertarians, constitutionalists, socialists, communists, national socialists)... if no one gets >50%, then the top 2 face a second election.

If you have just two candidates to choose from, how can one not get >50% of the vote?

[torn asunder]

run-off election: all candidates in (dems, reps, green, libertarians, constitutionalists, socialists, communists, national socialists)... if no one gets >50%, then the top 2 face a second election.

If you have just two candidates to choose from, how can one not get >50% of the vote?

ah, i missed the "run-off" portion - sorry!

added a thought - what if none of the candidates gets more than 20% or so - what justification is there to force the remaining 60% of the population (for example) to vote for someone they didn't want? i'd hardly call that a majority vote...

[phee]

Or did you miss the fact that Kerry won the popular vote, and yet Bush was re-elected?

I thought that Bush won the popular vote last time... but he lost to Gore in 2000?

[Goth Brooks]

I thought that Bush won the popular vote last time... but he lost to Gore in 2000?

You're right. Don't know why I thought Kerry won the popular vote.. maybe cause I just hate guys named Albert (Gore).

added a thought - what if none of the candidates gets more than 20% or so - what justification is there to force the remaining 60% of the population (for example) to vote for someone they didn't want? i'd hardly call that a majority vote...

What justification is there to force the country to be led by a man who lost the popular vote?

[torn asunder]

You're right. Don't know why I thought Kerry won the popular vote.. maybe cause I just hate guys named Albert (Gore).

What justification is there to force the country to be led by a man who lost the popular vote?

well, then...

nevermind.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Ok, then saying... honest question... Why does it seem your head is planted firmly up your ass? thats ok? I'm going to have to do some real digging torn.. but you told me before that that was an insult.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Gothbrooks... You missed my point entirely. The people screaming that we need to go by the Geneva convention with regards to the terrorists we capture have never read the convention.

The terrorist don't wear a recognizable uniform. That means, they don't get to live if caught. Summery execution for breaking international laws of war.

you are right about one thing. Torture brings shaky intel at best. Interigation on the other hand garners all kinds of usefull intel. You can't interigate dead people.

Classifieing them as "enemy combatants" keeps them alive, allows them access to military courts and gets us the inel we need.

I don't think water boarding is torture. I think all means to mentally break a person's will short of physical harm are valid when it comes to stopping another major attack on US soil.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

If you want to get rid of the Electoral college... get started on changing it. It will take a Constitutional Amendment. I have posted the process to do that many times so I am not going to post it again. If you don't know it... READ THE CONSTITUTION.

Nobody as yet has come up with a system thats better.

[Goth Brooks]

If you want to get rid of the Electoral college... get started on changing it. It will take a Constitutional Amendment. I have posted the process to do that many times so I am not going to post it again. If you don't know it... READ THE CONSTITUTION.

I have, many times. From start to finish. For fun.

Nobody as yet has come up with a system thats better.

Argentina, Austria, Brazil, Bulgaria, Chile, Croatia, Cyprus, Dominican Republic, Finland, France, Ghana, Guatemala, Indonesia, Portugal, Romania, Serbia...

All use run-off systems. Apparently France uses it for every election, not just their presidentials. I still hate the french.

[torn asunder]

Ok, then saying... honest question... Why does it seem your head is planted firmly up your ass? thats ok? I'm going to have to do some real digging torn.. but you told me before that that was an insult.

have you had your head planted firmly up your ass before, and therefore recognize that that might be my problem? is that what you're saying? the guy admitted to having had a head injury that can make him come across improperly, and wondered if maybe you had the same issue at some time... can you not see this as a genuine possiblity? it's not like he asked it out of the blue - he offered up his own experience with it & tried to relate - you took offense.

or am i the only one who actually got that part of his previous post? am i the only one? if so, i'll shut my fucking trap about this...

[Rev.Reverence]

Ok, then saying... honest question... Why does it seem your head is planted firmly up your ass? thats ok? I'm going to have to do some real digging torn.. but you told me before that that was an insult.

TORN ASSUNDER:

...or am i the only one who actually got that part of his previous post? am i the only one? if so, i'll shut my fucking trap about this...

You know what...never fuckin' mind gaf....I will just ASSuME your a habbitual gerk ass

I'll stop trying to get to know you.

[ttogreh]

Ok, I will submit to the assertion that the electoral college is here to stay, short of a constitutional amendment. HOWEVER...

Maine and Nebraska allocate their electoral votes by congressional district. If a state such as Texas or New York were to enact such a plan, the media would show that such an apportionment is not only fair but easy to understand. I would imagine that within ten years, the majority of states would switch to a congressional district apportionment plan. Such a change would make people more cognizant of which district they lived in, and as such, would probably aid in the dismantling of Gerrymandered districts.

Simply put, not enough people live in Maine or Nebraska, so the rest of the country never hears about their electoral systems.

As for wiretapping... If it was done in line with the law, and prior sins (or alleged sins) were allowed to be ameliorated in the courts, I have no qualms. This current bill gives amnesty to Telecom corporations.

Gaf, if you honestly think waterboarding isn't torture, let someone do it to you.

[Fin]

For reference purposes:

The Geneva Convention (all 4 conventions)

&

The U.S. Constitution

(the Bill of Rights are included herein, as they are techincally the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution)

Many clashes of opinion have to do with varying interpretations of the texts of these two documents (eg. is it the literal words of these texts that should be followed? If so, how are ambiguous, paradoxical, or generalized portions of the texts to be defined? Etc.) I for one, having thoroughly read both documents, do not think there is one right way to interpret either one--& there is the root of our problem.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

ttogreh - If an opertunity presents itself to me, I will. I only require that it be administered by people who have been trained how to do it.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

have you had your head planted firmly up your ass before, and therefore recognize that that might be my problem? is that what you're saying? the guy admitted to having had a head injury that can make him come across improperly, and wondered if maybe you had the same issue at some time... can you not see this as a genuine possiblity? it's not like he asked it out of the blue - he offered up his own experience with it & tried to relate - you took offense.

or am i the only one who actually got that part of his previous post? am i the only one? if so, i'll shut my fucking trap about this...

Excuse me. I seem to have forgot to put some qoutes in.. or maybe I worded it wrong...

let me try again.

If I were to say to you...

"Honest Question... Why are you trying to come off like a fuck stick?"

Am I insulting you?

I have been told, by you, that it is infact, a direct insult. Now you are telling me that because our friend has been hit on the head... it is somehow not an insult. Make up my damn mind.

Did you miss where phee saw it as an insult also?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I have, many times. From start to finish. For fun.

Argentina, Austria, Brazil, Bulgaria, Chile, Croatia, Cyprus, Dominican Republic, Finland, France, Ghana, Guatemala, Indonesia, Portugal, Romania, Serbia...

All use run-off systems. Apparently France uses it for every election, not just their presidentials. I still hate the french.

Those countrys are not as large as ours. They also do not have the diverse population that we do.

I do agree, we need a better system. I am not convinced as yet that your system will work here. It would take major tweaking. It would also have to be crafted in such a way that a vast majority of the people will vote Yes on it.

BTW... it would have to be run off. I don't think anyone has ever gotten over 50% of the popular vote.