Gaza

[Rev.Reverence]

Yet here we are, in a real world.. not an ideal. We have to deal with the consequecnes of not only our actions but our inactions.

In direct response... in some sociatys the birth of a girl is not celebrated at all. A child born with any defect is not celebrated at all. How do you explain, in our loving society, the high rate (300% increase since 1970) of abortion if life is so precious and cherished?

...sad but true...

[e-jewell]

I'm not thinking in circles. I'm thinking idealistically. Life is precious. I don't think there's a society on earth that doesn't celebrate the birth of a child. What more do we need to know?

We should also note the murder of female infants =/

But you're all straying on my thread, make your own and gtfo! lol.

Back to Gaza. I made a point in a much earlier post about Israel being like a dragon, finally provoked into fire-breathing. I say we let the dragon destroy the idiots who were stupid enough to awaken it. I think just about everything that can be said, has been said, until further news is delivered.

[Msterbeau]

Back to Gaza. I made a point in a much earlier post about Israel being like a dragon, finally provoked into fire-breathing. I say we let the dragon destroy the idiots who were stupid enough to awaken it. I think just about everything that can be said, has been said, until further news is delivered.

As much as I dislike death of innocents and war, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to tolerate the Arab worlds constant provocations against Israel. Some may say that they 're the ones that initiate these conflicts but the fact remains that they are all but surrounded by a vastly greater number of people who oppose the Jewish state. They are the underdogs. An eye for an eye may not get anybody anywhere, but it might teach the Arabs a lesson in respect. Then again, I wouldn't hold me breath. Logic doesn't seem to be their strong suit.

[e-jewell]

As much as I dislike death of innocents and war, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to tolerate the Arab worlds constant provocations against Israel. Some may say that they 're the ones that initiate these conflicts but the fact remains that they are all but surrounded by a vastly greater number of people who oppose the Jewish state. They are the underdogs. An eye for an eye may not get anybody anywhere, but it might teach the Arabs a lesson in respect. Then again, I wouldn't hold me breath. Logic doesn't seem to be their strong suit.

I often get carried away with my Hebrew pride, since it's considered a disgrace in my family and talking about it makes them uncomfortable, so can't get my point across without sounding EXTREMELY biased for my people.

But I'm glad to see that there are people who can get my own words out of my mouth for me People are much more likely to listen to a nonpartisan.

[Msterbeau]

But I'm glad to see that there are people who can get my own words out of my mouth for me

Oh. Is that why my fingers have goo on them?

[e-jewell]

Oh. Is that why my fingers have goo on them?

My good sir, I DECLARE that my mouth is Not by any means GOOEY! I challenge you to a duel!

lol I call Vader.

[Msterbeau]

My good sir, I DECLARE that my mouth is Not by any means GOOEY! I challenge you to a duel!

lol I call Vader.

Fine. I'll be Yoda.

Doomed are you now.

[phee]

Fine. I'll be Yoda.

Doomed are you now.

I will be Max Rebo the keyboard player

[Msterbeau]

I will be Max Rebo the keyboard player

They love him in the Outer Rim.

Are we off topic again?

[phee]

Gaze Middle East

[e-jewell]

I call the new pope, aka Sith Lord

Sorry if that offends anybody. He's kinda racist though.

[Msterbeau]

I call the new pope, aka Sith Lord

Sorry if that offends anybody. He's kinda racist though.

And that's not his least endearing quality either.

[e-jewell]

And that's not his least endearing quality either.

Yeah, unfortunately he's a pinnacle of a great many people's belief structure though. So I don't go insulting him.

I'm outspoken and bold, but when it comes to things that keep a lot of people from straight up killing themselves, such as religion, I can be nice.

[Msterbeau]

Yeah, unfortunately he's a pinnacle of a great many people's belief structure though. So I don't go insulting him.

I'm outspoken and bold, but when it comes to things that keep a lot of people from straight up killing themselves, such as religion, I can be nice.

I think the papacy and the Roman Catholic religion have caused more then their fair share suicide and pain. I don't have any qualms about ridiculing them. Probably in part because I was raised Catholic.

[e-jewell]

I don't agree with things that have been done in the past, but nowadays there's no wide-spread violence *cough Islam cough*

Religion, unless it's Islam, I will usually accept from other people. I know two people who tried to kill themselves. One converted to Judaism and now wouldn't dream of it. The other, a Catholic. Whether God is real or not is irrelevent; people place a lot of stock in their religion, and that includes their great demon sith overlord.

[torn asunder]

I don't agree with things that have been done in the past, but nowadays there's no wide-spread violence *cough Islam cough*

Religion, unless it's Islam, I will usually accept from other people. I know two people who tried to kill themselves. One converted to Judaism and now wouldn't dream of it. The other, a Catholic. Whether God is real or not is irrelevent; people place a lot of stock in their religion, and that includes their great demon sith overlord.

i do have this to say - i haven't studied islam, but from what i understand, it's really only the hard-liners who are so "jihad! kill the unbeleivers!" i've known a few muslims, and i've known a few who've converted to islam, and i get the impression that most of them are as peace-loving as any other religion.

my impression is that islam is a few hundred years behind the rest of the world's religions. remember the crusades? same thing, except that we got over it. some of the fundamentalists haven't. i'm honestly getting a bit tired of everyone bashing *all of islam* for what some crackpot zealots are doing. i do hope these zealots meet their maker sooner, rather than later, though...

[StormKnight (1)]

I believe we had a discussion on organized religion in general I refer to this post of mine in relation to it.

[the eternal]

I can't tell you how sad this thread makes me.

Regardless of all this Hebrew pride I'm reading about,

I'm going to take a stab that I'm the only one posting here that was raised Jewish

and has been to the Holy Land.

I'm probably the only one who walked down the streets of an Arab town in the West bank and talked to

those "evil" people everyone seems to demonize.

I'm not passing judgment, just making an observation.

Before the second intifada in the late summer of 2000, there was a lot of hope.

Both sides had come to the table, and were working toward a solution that broke down over

right-of-return of ex-"Palestinian" Arabs (they didn't call themselves that back then) who since moved to places like Egypt and Syria.

There are families out there.

Christian, secular, and Muslim Arabs.

It is not a religious conflict, although the Islamic surrounding countries would like to make it so,

but rather a territorial one.

The "Palestinians" did not call themselves that until the rise of the PLO a few decades ago. That's true.

Many were nomadic Arabs.

But they settled down in that tract of land and had homes there and lives that were upended in 1948,

when the UN, yes the same UN so many of you love to hate, helped establish a state of Israel.

Many of these people were driven from their homes, or made feel unwelcome in what they thought was their land.

Imagine this: you lived in a house your great-grandma built, and then one day was told that you had no right to live

there, because it was originally someone else's hundreds of years ago and you had to vacate immediately?

Leave behind the garden your grandpa first planted.

The trees that grew out of nothing but now tower around you.

Your friends.

The only life you knew.

Now imagine you're Jewish.

You were starved for two years in camps, after hiding for three years in someone's attic.

Your father was gassed and they melted his skin into a soap bar you were forced to use to bathe yourself so that you didn't get typhoid and die along the others.

Then you came home to your house in Poland and were told you were no longer welcome there.

That no one in Europe wanted you.

That there was nowhere to turn, and that if you did not find a homeland, you would have no place to welcome you? --Hence the creation of Israel.

See there are no easy answers here.

No absolute right and wrong.

And no mandate of moral authority.

Even today there are Israel Defense Forces killing civilians at checkpoints for less than worthy reasons and Palestinians

that reach out and try to find understanding of why this would happen by a "civilized" authority?

There are Arabs that will bomb a car with Jewish schoolchildren and Rabbinical scholars trying to use prayer to make sense of it without a knee jerk reaction of blind rage.

And how about the couple I met while I was there-He was Jewish, she was Palestinian.

Do we just kill her? Do we breathe fire and smote only one of their children?

Hamas is a serious problem and needs to be dealt with, but I think there's a lot more to it than that.

The Arabs are not going anywhere and neither are the Jews.

There needs to be a reasonable two-state solution.

Both sides need to come together like in 2000 and finish what they started.

We need to be mindful that this is the holy land, where Abraham offered Isaac to Hashem thousands of years ago,

but also where many Arabs have settled and established communities for quite some time now.

There are real people, real families on both sides.

They get their kids ready for school, they go to work, they make dinner, they go to bed.

And most of them don't want suicide bombings and secret prisons.

Jihad and devastating rocket retaliations.

They just want freedom from occupation, and freedom from fear of guerrilla attacks.

Freedom to pray at their synagogues and get on the bus on Ben Yehuda St without looking for a bomb.

They want peace

And I don't think it's any more justifiable to wish for a fire-breathing dragon to kill all the Gaza and West bank families any more than it was for the minority radicals and the Islamic clerics

who spoke for those they didn't understand when they threatened to push all the Jews into the Mediterranean Sea.

Just my thoughts.

[TitsMcGee]

I can't tell you how sad this thread makes me.

Regardless of all this Hebrew pride I'm reading about,

I'm going to take a stab that I'm the only one posting here that was raised Jewish

and has been to the Holy Land.

I'm probably the only one who walked down the streets of an Arab town in the West bank and talked to

those "evil" people everyone seems to demonize.

I'm not passing judgment, just making an observation.

Before the second intifada in the late summer of 2000, there was a lot of hope.

Both sides had come to the table, and were working toward a solution that broke down over

right-of-return of ex-"Palestinian" Arabs (they didn't call themselves that back then) who since moved to places like Egypt and Syria.

There are families out there.

Christian, secular, and Muslim Arabs.

It is not a religious conflict, although the Islamic surrounding countries would like to make it so,

but rather a territorial one.

The "Palestinians" did not call themselves that until the rise of the PLO a few decades ago. That's true.

Many were nomadic Arabs.

But they settled down in that tract of land and had homes there and lives that were upended in 1948,

when the UN, yes the same UN so many of you love to hate, helped establish a state of Israel.

Many of these people were driven from their homes, or made feel unwelcome in what they thought was their land.

Imagine this: you lived in a house your great-grandma built, and then one day was told that you had no right to live

there, because it was originally someone else's hundreds of years ago and you had to vacate immediately?

Leave behind the garden your grandpa first planted.

The trees that grew out of nothing but now tower around you.

Your friends.

The only life you knew.

Now imagine you're Jewish.

You were starved for two years in camps, after hiding for three years in someone's attic.

Your father was gassed and they melted his skin into a soap bar you were forced to use to bathe yourself so that you didn't get typhoid and die along the others.

Then you came home to your house in Poland and were told you were no longer welcome there.

That no one in Europe wanted you.

That there was nowhere to turn, and that if you did not find a homeland, you would have no place to welcome you? --Hence the creation of Israel.

See there are no easy answers here.

No absolute right and wrong.

And no mandate of moral authority.

Even today there are Israel Defense Forces killing civilians at checkpoints for less than worthy reasons and Palestinians

that reach out and try to find understanding of why this would happen by a "civilized" authority?

There are Arabs that will bomb a car with Jewish schoolchildren and Rabbinical scholars trying to use prayer to make sense of it without a knee jerk reaction of blind rage.

And how about the couple I met while I was there-He was Jewish, she was Palestinian.

Do we just kill her? Do we breathe fire and smote only one of their children?

Hamas is a serious problem and needs to be dealt with, but I think there's a lot more to it than that.

The Arabs are not going anywhere and neither are the Jews.

There needs to be a reasonable two-state solution.

Both sides need to come together like in 2000 and finish what they started.

We need to be mindful that this is the holy land, where Abraham offered Isaac to Hashem thousands of years ago,

but also where many Arabs have settled and established communities for quite some time now.

There are real people, real families on both sides.

They get their kids ready for school, they go to work, they make dinner, they go to bed.

And most of them don't want suicide bombings and secret prisons.

Jihad and devastating rocket retaliations.

They just want freedom from occupation, and freedom from fear of guerrilla attacks.

Freedom to pray at their synagogues and get on the bus on Ben Yehuda St without looking for a bomb.

They want peace

And I don't think it's any more justifiable to wish for a fire-breathing dragon to kill all the Gaza and West bank families any more than it was for the minority radicals and the Islamic clerics

who spoke for those they didn't understand when they threatened to push all the Jews into the Mediterranean Sea.

Just my thoughts.

+50 zillion

[e-jewell]

I can't tell you how sad this thread makes me.

Regardless of all this Hebrew pride I'm reading about,

I'm going to take a stab that I'm the only one posting here that was raised Jewish

and has been to the Holy Land.

I'm probably the only one who walked down the streets of an Arab town in the West bank and talked to

those "evil" people everyone seems to demonize.

I'm not passing judgment, just making an observation.

Before the second intifada in the late summer of 2000, there was a lot of hope.

Both sides had come to the table, and were working toward a solution that broke down over

right-of-return of ex-"Palestinian" Arabs (they didn't call themselves that back then) who since moved to places like Egypt and Syria.

There are families out there.

Christian, secular, and Muslim Arabs.

It is not a religious conflict, although the Islamic surrounding countries would like to make it so,

but rather a territorial one.

The "Palestinians" did not call themselves that until the rise of the PLO a few decades ago. That's true.

Many were nomadic Arabs.

But they settled down in that tract of land and had homes there and lives that were upended in 1948,

when the UN, yes the same UN so many of you love to hate, helped establish a state of Israel.

Many of these people were driven from their homes, or made feel unwelcome in what they thought was their land.

Imagine this: you lived in a house your great-grandma built, and then one day was told that you had no right to live

there, because it was originally someone else's hundreds of years ago and you had to vacate immediately?

Leave behind the garden your grandpa first planted.

The trees that grew out of nothing but now tower around you.

Your friends.

The only life you knew.

Now imagine you're Jewish.

You were starved for two years in camps, after hiding for three years in someone's attic.

Your father was gassed and they melted his skin into a soap bar you were forced to use to bathe yourself so that you didn't get typhoid and die along the others.

Then you came home to your house in Poland and were told you were no longer welcome there.

That no one in Europe wanted you.

That there was nowhere to turn, and that if you did not find a homeland, you would have no place to welcome you? --Hence the creation of Israel.

See there are no easy answers here.

No absolute right and wrong.

And no mandate of moral authority.

Even today there are Israel Defense Forces killing civilians at checkpoints for less than worthy reasons and Palestinians

that reach out and try to find understanding of why this would happen by a "civilized" authority?

There are Arabs that will bomb a car with Jewish schoolchildren and Rabbinical scholars trying to use prayer to make sense of it without a knee jerk reaction of blind rage.

And how about the couple I met while I was there-He was Jewish, she was Palestinian.

Do we just kill her? Do we breathe fire and smote only one of their children?

Hamas is a serious problem and needs to be dealt with, but I think there's a lot more to it than that.

The Arabs are not going anywhere and neither are the Jews.

There needs to be a reasonable two-state solution.

Both sides need to come together like in 2000 and finish what they started.

We need to be mindful that this is the holy land, where Abraham offered Isaac to Hashem thousands of years ago,

but also where many Arabs have settled and established communities for quite some time now.

There are real people, real families on both sides.

They get their kids ready for school, they go to work, they make dinner, they go to bed.

And most of them don't want suicide bombings and secret prisons.

Jihad and devastating rocket retaliations.

They just want freedom from occupation, and freedom from fear of guerrilla attacks.

Freedom to pray at their synagogues and get on the bus on Ben Yehuda St without looking for a bomb.

They want peace

And I don't think it's any more justifiable to wish for a fire-breathing dragon to kill all the Gaza and West bank families any more than it was for the minority radicals and the Islamic clerics

who spoke for those they didn't understand when they threatened to push all the Jews into the Mediterranean Sea.

Just my thoughts.

Of course they want peace, everyone does. But do you think that would happen? It's sad that there are so many non-muslim people who are being killed, but I should say a vast majority of alternate arabs harbor a deep hatred for their brothers that is explicitly commanded in the Qur'an. It states that Muslims have God's blessing to attack any Jew who won't convert to Islam. Muslims are also expected, by their religion, to support one another, extremist, terrorist, or normal citizen.

I'll try not to stray to larger issues than that at hand, as I am won't to do, and stick to Gaza.

Israel is defending itself, as they have every right to do. Israelis are taking CIVILIAN Palestinians into their hospitals and treating them. You know damn well, and we all know from the past, that if any Israeli's were harmed and Palestine had the power they'd kill them where they lie.

[Mean Salley]

As much as I dislike death of innocents and war, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to tolerate the Arab worlds constant provocations against Israel. Some may say that they 're the ones that initiate these conflicts but the fact remains that they are all but surrounded by a vastly greater number of people who oppose the Jewish state. They are the underdogs. An eye for an eye may not get anybody anywhere, but it might teach the Arabs a lesson in respect. Then again, I wouldn't hold me breath. Logic doesn't seem to be their strong suit.

The six day war is proof that nothing is going to change the minds of some people too terribly rapidly. A lot of people aren't familiar with it because it was during the Vietnam war, and was literally over before anyone else could have gotten involved.

Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Jordan Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia all declared war on Israel June 5th 1967. On June 10th 1967 Israel had succeeded in soundly defeating Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan before Saudi Arabia and Iraq could even get their soldiers to the front. It literally took Israel less than a week to defeat 6 nations and not just in a defensive campaign. Israel, in a matter of hours counter invaded Jordan and Syria striking deep into both countries finalizing the defeat of the unified Arab nations.

Regardless as to one's political stance and acknowledging that these facts really mean nothing, it does stand to reason that those nations obviously haven't learned from that massive mistake.

[Head Wreck]

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/grenade.htm

[taysteewonderbunny]

If there is no God, what Sin/great wrong has been committed?

I mean, if the source of our Morals is not "God" then the source of our Morals is "The People" and if a majorty of "the people" decide to wipe the humans off that particular part of the world? How has anything "wrong" been done?

Lovely. Our choice is religion or relativism? Or, rather, absolutism or relativism? Is there no compromise in your world, or are you just being sarcastic?

[taysteewonderbunny]

Having a Hebrew heritage, of course I'm on the side of the Israelis. And I do understand my evil jew relatives are controlling your media, pushing you to also support the Israelis, but consider that was for a reason.

And I hear a peace resolution has been called? WHAT is this nonsense? Rarely do the Israelis attack. The Palestinians have attacked everyone within radius for almost no reason at all, with no sign of reason at all, yet we call for peace as soon as the jews have a potential victory within grasp.

And why is that, I wonder? Because my people were annihilating the target with such vicious success that it frightens the rest of the world. Nobody wants to know what the Israelis are really capable of. Repeatedly persecuted though they may be, still they stand strong, and the IDF remains the most powerful military force on this planet, reminscent of the mighty spartans. Bred for nothing but fighting. I hope to god the attacks continue.

Okay, I know that the above was just stated for effect, but consider the moral implications of what you say if I just change a few words here:

Misquote: 'Having a German heritage, of course I'm on the side of the Nazis. And I do understand my evil anti-semite relatives are controlling your media, pushing you to support the Nazis, but consider that was for a reason.'

The above wouldn't have been so preposterous a thing to say 70 years ago.

I am NOT saying that Israelis are EQUIVALENT to Nazis. I am just saying that we shouldn't let our prejudices allow us to excuse crimes against humanity. BTW, I am NOT excusing the crimes by Hamas or Hazballah EITHER. Our heritage is folk identity. Our real allegiance should be to humanity as a whole.

[maeve]

Wow, It's difficult to express the disappointment I'm feeling in so many of you on this thread. I've been studying the Israel / Palestinian situation for over a decade now. I know people on both sides of the conflict and so far, with the exception of "The Eternal", I have to say the ignorance and blatant bigotery that has been expressed is heart breaking.

Normally, I like to think of our goth brothers and sisters as some of the most tolerant people on the face of the planet. As of this moment, I'm truely ashamed.

You people, and probably a good many Americans, really need to wake up and crawl out of the shells you've been living in and begin educating yourselves as to the world around you. You really have no idea.

I've been posting information on my blog regarding this devasting and horrific humanitarian crisis. I would strongly suggest you read it and inform yourselves as to what is really going on, since it seems that the vast majority of you are speaking from total ignorance.

Begin with the December 29th post (it includes the History of the Conflict) and then for humanity's sake - look at yourselves, really look at yourselves, and ask how your hatred is doing anything good.

http://extroversionofintrospective.blogspot.com