Gaza

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Lovely. Our choice is religion or relativism? Or, rather, absolutism or relativism? Is there no compromise in your world, or are you just being sarcastic?

Well.. when talking Morals, you have to look at the Ethics that back it up. Ethics though only give the consequences of morals... so we have to go a step farther to the Meta-Ethics...

1. Naturalism - Thats the way things are

2. Non-naturalism - Thats the way we think it should be

3. Super-naturalism - Thats how God says it is

4. Non-Cognitivism - It's that way because it's useful

It's still all boils down to absolutism or relativism.

[taysteewonderbunny]

Well.. when talking Morals, you have to look at the Ethics that back it up. Ethics though only give the consequences of morals... so we have to go a step farther to the Meta-Ethics...

1. Naturalism - Thats the way things are

2. Non-naturalism - Thats the way we think it should be

3. Super-naturalism - Thats how God says it is

4. Non-Cognitivism - It's that way because it's useful

It's still all boils down to absolutism or relativism.

While I do not find any current ethical system complete nor entirely consistent, I would have to say that there has to be a workable solution between absolutism and relativism per the inclusive sense of "or", or some combination of 1 and 4.

Per absolutism in its construction in # 3, if it turns out that there is no god, what is the thing that generates these beliefs?

(I like ethics, but I have postponed my studies in that area to pursue phil of language and phil of mind.)

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Wow, It's difficult to express the disappointment I'm feeling in so many of you on this thread. I've been studying the Israel / Palestinian situation for over a decade now. I know people on both sides of the conflict and so far, with the exception of "The Eternal", I have to say the ignorance and blatant bigotery that has been expressed is heart breaking.

Normally, I like to think of our goth brothers and sisters as some of the most tolerant people on the face of the planet. As of this moment, I'm truely ashamed.

You people, and probably a good many Americans, really need to wake up and crawl out of the shells you've been living in and begin educating yourselves as to the world around you. You really have no idea.

I've been posting information on my blog regarding this devasting and horrific humanitarian crisis. I would strongly suggest you read it and inform yourselves as to what is really going on, since it seems that the vast majority of you are speaking from total ignorance.

Begin with the December 29th post (it includes the History of the Conflict) and then for humanity's sake - look at yourselves, really look at yourselves, and ask how your hatred is doing anything good.

http://extroversionofintrospective.blogspot.com

I will never take the side of the Palestinians no matter how good an argument you make. You seem to gloss over their breaking of every peace agreement that has ever been made. You also seem to ignore the fact that they not only want their land back, they want Israel destroyed and all Jews driven from the Middle East.

I actually have not stated before in this thread my feelings on the conflict but I will am forced to tip my hand now.

BTW, if you want people to take your blog serious you should edit out your obvious favoritism toward the Palestinian side of the argument.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

While I do not find any current ethical system complete nor entirely consistent, I would have to say that there has to be a workable solution between absolutism and relativism per the inclusive sense of "or", or some combination of 1 and 4.

Per absolutism in its construction in # 3, if it turns out that there is no god, what is the thing that generates these beliefs?

(I like ethics, but I have postponed my studies in that area to pursue phil of language and phil of mind.)

Without God #3 becomes #4.

For what your talking about, you would need to come up with a whole new Moral Philosophy complete with new Morals, Ethics and Meta-Ethics.

[taysteewonderbunny]

Without God #3 becomes #4.

For what your talking about, you would need to come up with a whole new Moral Philosophy complete with new Morals, Ethics and Meta-Ethics.

Well, that's sort of the plan. Granted, I'm prolly not smart enough to pull the whole thing off, but I would like to try. And where I fail, maybe the geniuses out there can fix it or at least (and nearly as helpful) elucidate just exactly where I have gone wrong. It would be fun anyway.

Maybe in another thread, you could share with me what your ideas are?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Well, that's sort of the plan. Granted, I'm prolly not smart enough to pull the whole thing off, but I would like to try. And where I fail, maybe the geniuses out there can fix it or at least (and nearly as helpful) elucidate just exactly where I have gone wrong. It would be fun anyway.

Maybe in another thread, you could share with me what your ideas are?

Well, you start it and put your thoughts down... I'll try to plug some holes and ask some questions that lead you down the path you want to follow.

[taysteewonderbunny]

Well, you start it and put your thoughts down... I'll try to plug some holes and ask some questions that lead you down the path you want to follow.

Mind if I wait until I'm fully recovered from my illness? Brain's not tiptop at the moment.

[Reaper]

As per the human race, you will never get one side correct over the other. Let's face it, the conflict will always go on as long as they live. It always has and the lives of the few that create the conflict affect the others who in turn do the same. Both sides will do this, as they see it as an excuse to beat the other down. You will never win on either side.

[maeve]

I will never take the side of the Palestinians no matter how good an argument you make. You seem to gloss over their breaking of every peace agreement that has ever been made. You also seem to ignore the fact that they not only want their land back, they want Israel destroyed and all Jews driven from the Middle East.

I actually have not stated before in this thread my feelings on the conflict but I will am forced to tip my hand now.

BTW, if you want people to take your blog serious you should edit out your obvious favoritism toward the Palestinian side of the argument.

The ONLY side I am taking, and the only side I am asking that anyone take - is the side of a caring human being.

[Rev.Reverence]

I can't tell you how sad this thread makes me.

Regardless of all this Hebrew pride I'm reading about,

I'm going to take a stab that I'm the only one posting here that was raised Jewish

and has been to the Holy Land.

I'm probably the only one who walked down the streets of an Arab town in the West bank and talked to

those "evil" people everyone seems to demonize.

I'm not passing judgment, just making an observation.

Before the second intifada in the late summer of 2000, there was a lot of hope.

Both sides had come to the table, and were working toward a solution that broke down over

right-of-return of ex-"Palestinian" Arabs (they didn't call themselves that back then) who since moved to places like Egypt and Syria.

There are families out there.

Christian, secular, and Muslim Arabs.

It is not a religious conflict, although the Islamic surrounding countries would like to make it so,

but rather a territorial one.

The "Palestinians" did not call themselves that until the rise of the PLO a few decades ago. That's true.

Many were nomadic Arabs.

But they settled down in that tract of land and had homes there and lives that were upended in 1948,

when the UN, yes the same UN so many of you love to hate, helped establish a state of Israel.

Many of these people were driven from their homes, or made feel unwelcome in what they thought was their land.

Imagine this: you lived in a house your great-grandma built, and then one day was told that you had no right to live

there, because it was originally someone else's hundreds of years ago and you had to vacate immediately?

Leave behind the garden your grandpa first planted.

The trees that grew out of nothing but now tower around you.

Your friends.

The only life you knew.

Now imagine you're Jewish.

You were starved for two years in camps, after hiding for three years in someone's attic.

Your father was gassed and they melted his skin into a soap bar you were forced to use to bathe yourself so that you didn't get typhoid and die along the others.

Then you came home to your house in Poland and were told you were no longer welcome there.

That no one in Europe wanted you.

That there was nowhere to turn, and that if you did not find a homeland, you would have no place to welcome you? --Hence the creation of Israel.

See there are no easy answers here.

No absolute right and wrong.

And no mandate of moral authority.

Even today there are Israel Defense Forces killing civilians at checkpoints for less than worthy reasons and Palestinians

that reach out and try to find understanding of why this would happen by a "civilized" authority?

There are Arabs that will bomb a car with Jewish schoolchildren and Rabbinical scholars trying to use prayer to make sense of it without a knee jerk reaction of blind rage.

And how about the couple I met while I was there-He was Jewish, she was Palestinian.

Do we just kill her? Do we breathe fire and smote only one of their children?

Hamas is a serious problem and needs to be dealt with, but I think there's a lot more to it than that.

The Arabs are not going anywhere and neither are the Jews.

There needs to be a reasonable two-state solution.

Both sides need to come together like in 2000 and finish what they started.

We need to be mindful that this is the holy land, where Abraham offered Isaac to Hashem thousands of years ago,

but also where many Arabs have settled and established communities for quite some time now.

There are real people, real families on both sides.

They get their kids ready for school, they go to work, they make dinner, they go to bed.

And most of them don't want suicide bombings and secret prisons.

Jihad and devastating rocket retaliations.

They just want freedom from occupation, and freedom from fear of guerrilla attacks.

Freedom to pray at their synagogues and get on the bus on Ben Yehuda St without looking for a bomb.

They want peace

And I don't think it's any more justifiable to wish for a fire-breathing dragon to kill all the Gaza and West bank families any more than it was for the minority radicals and the Islamic clerics

who spoke for those they didn't understand when they threatened to push all the Jews into the Mediterranean Sea.

Just my thoughts.

...SO DREAMY...SO Wise....

...& to "tip my hand" as well...I condone nor support either side...

..it is horrid how the Many are defamed by the Few...but the Many don't seem to be stopping the Few...

....they made their bed...they shall lie in it...the strongest of both will eventually be so small in numbers that they will HAVE to stop killing each other...

I have known some Muslims in my time...& I'll tell you this...they have just about the same percentages of assholes in their number as the Jews (like, I don't mean "Descendants of Jews"...I mean Jews ..that goto Synagogue & have Shivas [sp?]Dinner every Friday night, or at least every month at Grandma's house) I do & have known...& that BY PERCENTAGE the "Christians" have a larger percentage of assholes than any other Religious group...(& I put the quotes in 'cause I was counting Catholic & Protestant as 1`.)

Then...you have SOME Muslims that are SUPER-COOLER-THAN-ANY-OF-US........

..like Cat Stevens...I mean Yusuf Islam...

...I think that my friend Abul Hassan is Muslim...but it is mixed with some Buddhism or something...I know he's certainly a peace-loving guy...even though there IS a BIT of a language barrier...'could be Buddhism that follows Islamic Law...there is such a thing...Buddhism is the most mixed Spiritual path there is out there...there are Pagan, Taoist, Jewish, Orthodox, Catholic, Christian, Muslim & Atheist adherents to the teachings of the Buddha....

Can't we all just get along?

People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the older people and the kids?...It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. We’ll, we’ll get our justice....Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out.

[Tacohitts]

situation right now

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090110/ap_on_...el_palestinians

[Slogo]

Damn the eternal is smart.

I know whose fault it is.

Not Israeli

Not Palestinian

Not British or Fren....

Oh yeah it kinda was them.

Muslims, Christians and Jews lived rather peaceably until de-colonization roughly 80 years ago. In fact Jews and Christians were a protected class in Islam due to their relationship to Ibrahim (Abraham). It was really just the Pagans that that Muhammad went after (though that was also uncool). All went to Hell when the French and British (the latter being my ancestry yet I'm not taking their side) said "We're leaving here. Let's draw some lines in the sand and we'll just see who wants it more".

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Damn the eternal is smart.

I know whose fault it is.

Not Israeli

Not Palestinian

Not British or Fren....

Oh yeah it kinda was them.

Muslims, Christians and Jews lived rather peaceably until de-colonization roughly 80 years ago. In fact Jews and Christians were a protected class in Islam due to their relationship to Ibrahim (Abraham). It was really just the Pagans that that Muhammad went after (though that was also uncool). All went to Hell when the French and British (the latter being my ancestry yet I'm not taking their side) said "We're leaving here. Let's draw some lines in the sand and we'll just see who wants it more".

That would can only be true if we ignore 3000 years of war in the region.

[phee]

That would can only be true if we ignore region.

Edited with my opinion inserted

[phee]

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

- Emo Philips

[taysteewonderbunny]

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

- Emo Philips

I love that quote.

[Simon Bar Sinister]

even the Muslims KNOW that God promised that land to the Hebrews.

This is the problem. Millenia of mass murder over a fucking fairy tale.

[phee]

This is the problem. Millenia of mass murder over a fucking fairy tale.

Indeed.

Both groups are killing each other and both claim it is is for defense from the other *sigh*

[taysteewonderbunny]

Indeed.

Both groups are killing each other and both claim it is is for defense from the other *sigh*

And countless innocents are caught in the cross-fire.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Actually, the conflict predates the Christian/Jewish/Muslin faiths by a few years... somewhere between 1000 and 1500. Remember, when it started, Jews were just another tribe of Arabs. Even if you go by the Old Testament account, it started over resources and pussy.

[taysteewonderbunny]

Actually, the conflict predates the Christian/Jewish/Muslin faiths by a few years... somewhere between 1000 and 1500. Remember, when it started, Jews were just another tribe of Arabs. Even if you go by the Old Testament account, it started over resources and pussy.

What are you saying? Pussy isn't a resource? I would have to beg to differ, sir.

But, yeah, when it comes down to it, aren't all conflicts about resources? In a sense, they're all contests about which group is most entitled to whatever resource, sometimes a bit indirectly in which case it's about some defining characteristics of rival groups who both claim entitlement, but it is always about resources, pussy included.

[Der Nister]

Having a Hebrew heritage, of course I'm on the side of the Israelis. And I do understand my evil jew relatives are controlling your media, pushing you to also support the Israelis, but consider that was for a reason.

I support Israel because they are just defending themselves. Since that country was established in 1948 (?) the Arab nation has just fucked with them non stop.

It's like a kid on the playground fighting off bullies. If the bullies get a taste of their own medicine then good, they had it coming.

What I don't understand is why these little fractions think they can go up against Israel - did they not hear about the 6 day war with Iran in the late 60's? *if my memory serves me correctly* Or maybe it's called the 6 hour war - can't recall but I seen it on the history channel.

Israel kicked some major ass and the shit was over before it started. You would think that by now, they would know better and leave Israel alone but - stupid is as stupid does.

[Slogo]

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/pop...14&src=news

Why do I have a feeling some people here hate this idea

[candyman]

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/pop...14&src=news

Why do I have a feeling some people here hate this idea

Why would anyone hate this idea?

[Slogo]

Why would anyone hate this idea?

Because it seems like some people just want the Arabs to die. They don't want them to get along with anyone.